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Author Topic: At which point is or was the UT program at the worst point,Now or 1977?  (Read 18030 times)
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WoodstockVol
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« on: November 29, 2011, 12:07:39 EST »

I think the 2011 and 1977 teams were both lacking in talent and depth. The one advantage the 77 team had over the 2011 team was Johnny Majors. Johnny would coach rings around Coach Dooley
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SmokeyJoe
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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2011, 12:14:46 EST »

Aw I don't know that.  Johnny was about as old school as they come.  What do you mean by coaching rings around Dooley?  Going for it on fourth down?  Maybe Dooley knew his punter and kicker (thanks to Lame Kiffin) weren't worth a fizzle.  I think 1977 was worse.  In that era we lost to army, north texas state, rutgers, tied a terrible oregon team in Knoxville, as well as losing to vanderbilt, and ky.  You youngsters are a hoot!    Instant gratification?    The cold, hard fact is Tennessee is not florida, or louisiana, or alabama, or anywhere near in producing in state talent.  Why do you think the "Big Names" shy away?  I think we'll be fine in the near term, and if not... well, we've been here, and done that in my lifetime.  Look at the historical records from time to time.  Interesting.  Did you get a media guide for 2011?  They always include all time records for each opponent/season.  We have never had a 10 championship in a decade program.  That's just not our game.  But, we have a mighty fine program.  Always have, and always will.  Boom!  
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WoodstockVol
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2011, 12:17:07 EST »

Aw I don't know that.  Johnny was about as old school as they come.  What do you mean by coaching rings around Dooley?  Going for it on fourth down?  Maybe Dooley knew his punter and kicker (thanks to Lame Kiffin) weren't worth a fizzle.  I think 1977 was worse.  In that era we lost to army, north texas state, rutgers, tied a terrible oregon team in Knoxville, as well as losing to vanderbilt, and ky.  You youngsters are a hoot!    Instant gratification?    The cold, hard fact is Tennessee is not florida, or louisiana, or alabama, or anywhere near in producing in state talent.  Why do you think the "Big Names" shy away?  I think we'll be fine in the near term, and if not... well, we've been here, and done that in my lifetime.  Look at the historical records from time to time.  Interesting.  Did you get a media guide for 2011?  They always include all time records for each opponent/season.  We have never had a 10 championship in a decade program.  That's just not our game.  But, we have a mighty fine program.  Always have, and always will.  Boom!  

I'll always will be a UT fan and will give Dooley another season or two. I'd love to see Tennessee land the Houston Coach if Dooley doesn't work out. UK had good teams then,9-3 in 1976 and 10-1 in 1977
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genemcever
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 12:23:04 EST »

It is worse now than 1977.  

The 1977 team lost at Kentucky (21-17), but Kentucky went 10-1 and won all of their SEC games.  The 1977 team finished the season with a 42-7 win over a terrible Vandy team.  The 1977 team was more competitive in rivalry games.

This is the worst era since 1909-1911.
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SmokeyJoe
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 12:54:32 EST »

It is worse now than 1977.  

The 1977 team lost at Kentucky (21-17), but Kentucky went 10-1 and won all of their SEC games.  The 1977 team finished the season with a 42-7 win over a terrible Vandy team.  The 1977 team was more competitive in rivalry games.

This is the worst era since 1909-1911.

Good points.  John Adams said this was the third worst team in UT history.  I'm trying to be positive here.     My memory is far from precise.  I can remember being at a UT/UK game when UK won, in Knoxville 7-0.  I was there.  lol.  We are at a low ebb.  No doubt about it.  I am firmly in the 8+ win season, or hasta la vista, camp!  (next year)
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LouisVOL
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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 12:58:53 EST »

Cupboard was bare in 77, I think we have a good foundation now.  One thing I give Dooley credit for is decent recruiting and talent evaluation, I have been generally impressed by his recruits on the field, and as good citizens to date.  If anybody remembers when Glenn Glass or Whit Canale were our best players, then that helps put this current situation in perspective. 
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SmokeyJoe
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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2011, 01:24:15 EST »

I'm counting on a Smokin Joe Frazier left hook from the program, soon!   
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EmerilVOL
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2011, 12:59:48 EST »

I think the 2011 and 1977 teams were both lacking in talent and depth. The one advantage the 77 team had over the 2011 team was Johnny Majors. Johnny would coach rings around Coach Dooley

Cold Hard Facts

Majors was an egotistical maniac.  Having met Majors it was all about him and noone else....if the team won he was quick to pat himself on the back, if the team lost he was quick to shift the blame elsewhere.  Having lived through the Majors years it was a train wreck waiting to happen.  Majors could have been won the NAtional Championship in 92 if he had just stayed off the sidelines and let Fulmer interim out the year and then come back for a bowl game.  Majors was too scared that here Fulmer was taking his players and wiping the floor with the competition.  If Majors does not come back UT is in the Sugar bowl and winning the MNC that year.  They would not have lost to Arkansas, Bama, and USCe and would have played in the Inagural SEC Championship game. 


PS Majors was not all that.....
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2011, 10:40:54 EST »

Cold Hard Facts

Majors was an egotistical maniac.  Having met Majors it was all about him and noone else....if the team won he was quick to pat himself on the back, if the team lost he was quick to shift the blame elsewhere.  Having lived through the Majors years it was a train wreck waiting to happen.  Majors could have been won the NAtional Championship in 92 if he had just stayed off the sidelines and let Fulmer interim out the year and then come back for a bowl game.  Majors was too scared that here Fulmer was taking his players and wiping the floor with the competition.  If Majors does not come back UT is in the Sugar bowl and winning the MNC that year.  They would not have lost to Arkansas, Bama, and USCe and would have played in the Inagural SEC Championship game.  


PS Majors was not all that.....




On behalf of George Teague, Antonio Langham, John Copeland, Eric Curry and the rest of that defense from the '92 National Campionship team, I'm here today to tell ya they highly dispute your claim about UT in '92. Now fully understand these are in no way my personal thoughts on this matter, but entirely of those that have been named above.


Sincerely,

BGHarper
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 10:43:24 EST by BGHarper » Logged
ReVOLver
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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2011, 10:49:51 EST »



On behalf of George Teague, Antonio Langham, John Copeland, Eric Curry and the rest of that defense from the '92 National Campionship team, I'm here today to tell ya they highly dispute your claim about UT in '92. Now fully understand these are in no way my personal thoughts on this matter, but entirely of those that have been named above.


Sincerely,

BGHarper

As I recall, it was a VERY competitive game. 17-10 I think. UT was right there. I don't know if I agree with Emeril that Fulmer would've made THE difference, but I think it's possible. He was a different coach then than he was after '98.
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BGHarper
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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2011, 11:01:45 EST »

As I recall, it was a VERY competitive game. 17-10 I think. UT was right there. I don't know if I agree with Emeril that Fulmer would've made THE difference, but I think it's possible. He was a different coach then than he was after '98.


Disagree. As one UT fan on Gridscape said a couple of years later, "that was the was the worst 17-10 ass kicking I've ever seen."  His words, not mine, but I never forgot them. Bama dominated physically. That was one time I wasn't concerned too much that another team would score 7 more points on the Tide to tie the game. That Bama D was awesome.


BG
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BigOrange Maniac
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« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2011, 11:02:34 EST »

Cold Hard Facts

Majors was an egotistical maniac.  Having met Majors it was all about him and noone else....if the team won he was quick to pat himself on the back, if the team lost he was quick to shift the blame elsewhere.  Having lived through the Majors years it was a train wreck waiting to happen.  Majors could have been won the NAtional Championship in 92 if he had just stayed off the sidelines and let Fulmer interim out the year and then come back for a bowl game.  Majors was too scared that here Fulmer was taking his players and wiping the floor with the competition.  If Majors does not come back UT is in the Sugar bowl and winning the MNC that year.  They would not have lost to Arkansas, Bama, and USCe and would have played in the Inagural SEC Championship game. 


PS Majors was not all that.....


For whatever he was or wasn't, Majors was responsible for revitalizing a program that had accomplished a whole lot of nothing since Gen. Neyland left the program. Majors' accomplishments were the groundwork for everything that happened in the '90s.
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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2011, 11:07:43 EST »


Disagree. As one UT fan on Gridscape said a couple of years later, "that was the was the worst 17-10 ass kicking I've ever seen."  His words, not mine, but I never forgot them. Bama dominated physically. That was one time I wasn't concerned too much that another team would score 7 more points on the Tide to tie the game. That Bama D was awesome.


BG

Well, we are debating what we'll never know, so you can keep your opinion and I'll adjust mine to we would've whipped the shizzle out of you if Fulmer would've been the HC. 
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BGHarper
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2011, 11:15:18 EST »

Well, we are debating what we'll never know, so you can keep your opinion and I'll adjust mine to we would've whipped the shizzle out of you if Fulmer would've been the HC.  


  LOLLLLLLL, Well, I don't blame ya...:)

Why I was so adament about that game/season is the 92 defense was really special, one of the best I've ever seen in college football. Many of those not wearing Crimson, said the same thing.

I went for google info as I thought I better get some stats quickly so I could defend my position, but you let me off easy so I won't post them. But if yall make me, I will................ (Bandit, I'm talking to you)  



BG
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 11:16:59 EST by BGHarper » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2011, 11:19:02 EST »


  LOLLLLLLL, Well, I don't blame ya...:)

Why I was so adament about that game/season is the 92 defense was really special, one of the best I've ever seen in college football. Many of those not wearing Crimson, said the same thing.

I went for google info as I thought I better get some stats quickly so I could defend my position, but you let me off easy so I won't post them. But if yall make me, I will................ (Bandit, I'm talking to you)  



BG


Oh, you don't have to support the position that Bama's '92 D was one of the best ever... I buy that. I just think we were pretty close to Bammer that year based on overall team strength. But the team was already divided by that point.
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« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2011, 11:29:49 EST »

Oh, you don't have to support the position that Bama's '92 D was one of the best ever... I buy that. I just think we were pretty close to Bammer that year based on overall team strength. But the team was already divided by that point.


Heath Shuler was one great college QB.


BG
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LouisVOL
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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2011, 12:49:40 EST »

For whatever he was or wasn't, Majors was responsible for revitalizing a program that had accomplished a whole lot of nothing since Gen. Neyland left the program. Majors' accomplishments were the groundwork for everything that happened in the '90s.

Whoa, there!  Coach Dickey was responsible for revitalizing the program.  Coach Battle regressed, but nowhere near pre-Dickey days.  Majors was what he was, and most UT fans will never agree on what he was, so no use beating a dead horse, but love him or hate him, giving him credit for revitalizing the program from Neyland days is over the top (IMHO-which is why we have message boards).
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BigOrange Maniac
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« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2011, 01:14:09 EST »

We'll agree to disagree. Dickey played his role, but what Dickey built wasn't enough to sustain itself. Dickey had a .730 winning percentage but left after five seasons and UT football was back on the ropes through the Battle era. Majors had to rebuild the program from the bottom up (not unlike the task Dooley is faced with now), which is why it took him so long to start having fairly consistent success. '86-'88 was a lost era of sorts, but after the dismal '88 season Majors had stockpiled enough talent to make UT a serious contender for the national championship every year from '89 through '92. When Fulmer took over, he was able to just pick up where Majors left off because the program was in such outstanding shape.

As special as UT's '95-'98 teams were, I'm not sure there has ever been a period when UT had more talent in the cupboard than from '89-'92.
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EmerilVOL
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« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2011, 01:13:25 EST »

For whatever he was or wasn't, Majors was responsible for revitalizing a program that had accomplished a whole lot of nothing since Gen. Neyland left the program. Majors' accomplishments were the groundwork for everything that happened in the '90s.

After Neyland left let me ask you about a coach that was here and was responsible for some of the best 1950s football seen in the South....yeah that's right Neyland was still the AD but there was a new coach in town after the General had stepped down and UT was capably led by a former player of the General's by the name of Bowden Wyatt.  Then after that was Douglas Adair Dickey then there was Bill Battle who was responsible for a decline but nowhere near where Lane Kiffin decimated the program after replacing Fulmer.

I make the Majors observation based on the fact that Majors could never get over the hump of consistently beating Alabama (pre SEC 12 team league) and this was the defining game almost every year.  Majors was a good coach albeit an egotistical one, but he was not the be all to end all type of coach.  Majors won his only National Championship with Pitt because he brought in 70 players that first year as the coach.  The NCAA then got nasty and told colleges that they could not bring in 70 players in one year.  They call it the Majors rule for a reason. 

Majors was an egotist and that is certain one of his faults in its entirety.  Was Majors a great coach...hell no.....Fulmer proved that by taking Majors players and winning the first four games of the 92 campaign and beating UGA and UF back to back in 1992.  Majors was not the best coach at UT in the last 50 years he is 3rd at best.  The jury is still out on Derek Dooley.

If UT had more talent from 89 to 92 then why in the hell did Majors not win the NC during that time?  Because he was at best an ok coach and did not know how to really rally the troops and his a$$ got tighter than a hooker in Nawlins during the Sugar Bowl week. 

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« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2011, 01:31:51 EST »


If UT had more talent from 89 to 92 then why in the hell did Majors not win the NC during that time?  Because he was at best an ok coach and did not know how to really rally the troops and his a$$ got tighter than a hooker in Nawlins during the Sugar Bowl week. 



I suspect that UT didn't win a national championship from '89-'92 for the same reason that they didn't win won from '95-'97. Alabama was the monkey on Majors' back...Florida was the monkey on Fulmer's back. There were a lot of similarities between the two of them in terms of the product on the field.

Whether Majors was an egotist doesn't really concern me. Lots of coaches are egotists. My point is simply that for whatever his faults may have been, he laid the foundation for a lot of good times from '89-'01.
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« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2011, 03:18:47 EST »

Say what you want about Majors, and I agree he was overated as HC and an egotist, he did recruit well in the 80s.   The clincher for me is when in 1991 we had the offensive AND defensive rookie of the year in the NFL (Pickens and Carter).
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« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2011, 03:25:21 EST »

BG I have one word for you.  Arkansas.  Arkansas lost to CITADEL on their home field that year, which immediately led to their coach getting fired.  They then came into Neyland WINLESS and shocked an undefeated Tennessee with Majors as coach.  This is after we stomped the shizzle out of a very good Florida team and beat a really good Uga team in Athens.

So you can see the "Majors effect".  We only lost by 7 to you.  I was at that game.  I thought it was pretty close.  That other poseur can say whatever he said 19 years ago, but if Fulmer had been the coach I think there would be a very good chance we win.

I'll say this...bammer did move the ball better that day and blew a couple scoring chances, but you can't underestimate how bad Majors screwed that team up.

As for your 92 D, they were very good.  I recall that Curry and Copeland were the centerpiece of that D.  It was VERY good.  In terms of later NFL success though, Curry and Copeland had rather humdrum careers.  Henderson, Ellis, and particularly Haynesworth from our late 90's team all did far better in the NFL, FWIW (although Haynesworth turned into a huge head case  ).
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« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2011, 04:40:26 EST »

After Neyland left let me ask you about a coach that was here and was responsible for some of the best 1950s football seen in the South....yeah that's right Neyland was still the AD but there was a new coach in town after the General had stepped down and UT was capably led by a former player of the General's by the name of Bowden Wyatt.  Then after that was Douglas Adair Dickey then there was Bill Battle who was responsible for a decline but nowhere near where Lane Kiffin decimated the program after replacing Fulmer.

I make the Majors observation based on the fact that Majors could never get over the hump of consistently beating Alabama (pre SEC 12 team league) and this was the defining game almost every year.  Majors was a good coach albeit an egotistical one, but he was not the be all to end all type of coach.  Majors won his only National Championship with Pitt because he brought in 70 players that first year as the coach.  The NCAA then got nasty and told colleges that they could not bring in 70 players in one year.  They call it the Majors rule for a reason.  

Majors was an egotist and that is certain one of his faults in its entirety.  Was Majors a great coach...hell no.....Fulmer proved that by taking Majors players and winning the first four games of the 92 campaign and beating UGA and UF back to back in 1992.  Majors was not the best coach at UT in the last 50 years he is 3rd at best.  The jury is still out on Derek Dooley.

If UT had more talent from 89 to 92 then why in the hell did Majors not win the NC during that time?  Because he was at best an ok coach and did not know how to really rally the troops and his a$$ got tighter than a hooker in Nawlins during the Sugar Bowl week.  






See even with my Crimson glasses always tightly affixed to my skull (according to my wife, they easily fit as my brain size in that skull is not so large), I even know all of that. Well, the exception is that Neyland was the AD when Wyatt was the coach...that I did not know.

Both Wyatt and Dickey had some great teams, and those Dickey teams I remember well as a kid. UT had some really great LB's on those Doug Dickey coached teams. That comment is not for you older guys who surely know that, but some of the younger who may not.


BG 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 04:51:08 EST by BGHarper » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2011, 05:17:45 EST »

BG I have one word for you.  Arkansas.  Arkansas lost to CITADEL on their home field that year, which immediately led to their coach getting fired.  They then came into Neyland WINLESS and shocked an undefeated Tennessee with Majors as coach.  This is after we stomped the shizzle out of a very good Florida team and beat a really good Uga team in Athens.

So you can see the "Majors effect".  We only lost by 7 to you.  I was at that game.  I thought it was pretty close.  That other poseur can say whatever he said 19 years ago, but if Fulmer had been the coach I think there would be a very good chance we win.

I'll say this...bammer did move the ball better that day and blew a couple scoring chances, but you can't underestimate how bad Majors screwed that team up.

As for your 92 D, they were very good.  I recall that Curry and Copeland were the centerpiece of that D.  It was VERY good.  In terms of later NFL success though, Curry and Copeland had rather humdrum careers.  Henderson, Ellis, and particularly Haynesworth from our late 90's team all did far better in the NFL, FWIW (although Haynesworth turned into a huge head case  ).


Bandit, you hit on the fact we moved the ball much better that day, and those numbers were what I looked up on the net thinking I would have to surely have support my comments on that game once Bandit read what I said......      True!

I don't disagree on Majors impact, or lack thereof. Emeril hit on what most Vols thought at the time, which was Majors could put a lot of talent on the field but there was always something lacking, and for what ever reason the team didn't seem to play as hard for him as they did for Fulmer.



BG 
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