Retrospect on the BasketVols

[Tnphil]

Why can't a black man be a legitimate bad coach. I am sick and tired of everytime a black person fails or doesn't get the job it's because people are racists not because he is an actually bad coach. Some of his team's offensive production was painful to watch.

^Homerun.

[HerbTarlekVol]

^Homerun.

Actually a grand slam.

And we all know that a Double Live Cuonzo Martin coached team would have closed on a 20-2 run to come back and with that game, don't we?   

[HerbTarlekVol]

Bandit, I mean no offense but the inference that we didn't like Martin because he was black is just plain horseshizzle.  What color was Jerry Green?  What color was Derek fizzleing Dooley?   

Bruce Pearl is a Jewish man, for goodness sakes, and even though his stupidity led to is demise as UT's coach some fans still think he hung the damned moon.

UT fans don't give a rats ass what color either a coach or an athlete may be.  Do I need to star listing all of the black athletes who are put on pedestals by UT fans?

I'm over the racist shizzle.  It has no merit what so ever. 

[HerbTarlekVol]

And Cuonzo's team lost by 22 in the PAC 12 tourney last night.  Shocking.  Simply shocking.   

[Clockwork Orange]

And Cuonzo's team lost by 22 in the PAC 12 tourney last night.  Shocking.  Simply shocking.   

Cuonzo won 18 games this year with a roster returning a lot of scorers and three starters from a team that won 21 games last year. Donnie has won 16 and counting with a roster that returned four players and one scorer/starter, playing out of position the entire season for 36 minutes per game.

Oh, and Tennessee's schedule was tougher according to everyone who measures such things (RPI, Pomeroy, Massey were the three sources I referenced).

I mean . . . the math is not really that hard.

[Live Orange]

Bandit, I mean no offense but the inference that we didn't like Martin because he was black is just plain horseshizzle.  What color was Jerry Green?  What color was Derek fizzleing Dooley?   

Bruce Pearl is a Jewish man, for goodness sakes, and even though his stupidity led to is demise as UT's coach some fans still think he hung the damned moon.

UT fans don't give a rats ass what color either a coach or an athlete may be.  Do I need to star listing all of the black athletes who are put on pedestals by UT fans?

I'm over the racist shizzle.  It has no merit what so ever. 

 

[BanditVol]

It's not a factor for me, and I've been disgusted by the assertion-- on your part just now and by national writers-- that race was a significant part of the dislike for Cuonzo. For some people, yes, and I hate those people as much as you do. Racism is no doubt alive and well and I see it with regularity. It's more subtle than it used to be but it's still everywhere.

But Cuonzo's fate here was about difficult circumstances and his own failures, and any impact his race made was on only a small fraction of the disgruntled.

Deniers are gonna deny.   

I say 15 to 20% but that's a guesstimate based on personal experience.

But anyone who says there are NOT unreconstructed racists in our fanbase is either smoking crack or lying their ass off.

I've been in the South 33 years and my daddy's family goes back to 1819 in alerbammer.  I am neither blind nor stupid and I know what I have seen and heard.

[BanditVol]

Yeah. There is no racism in California, you know.  

UT offered Cuonzo a half million dollar per year raise and a contract extension.  He wasn't mistreated in any shape, form, or fashion.  We should all hope to be "mistreated" like that.   He chose to leave - period.  

Yeah and the whole idiotic petition to fire him never happened either, did it. 

[PirateVOL]

Yeah and the whole idiotic petition to fire him never happened either, did it. 

The partition was because he flat SUCKED (and still does) as a basketball coach.
You continued insinuations are not accurate nor appropriate.

[BanditVol]

Bandit, I mean no offense but the inference that we didn't like Martin because he was black is just plain horseshizzle.  What color was Jerry Green?  What color was Derek fizzleing Dooley?   

I didn't say you personally, though there is a question I could ask you about something related.

But aside from that, I am not saying Cuonzo was run off JUST BECAUSE he was black. 

I am also not saying he was a great coach.  I would argue he was average and not terrible, but that's a relatively minor thing.

What I AM saying is two things.

1. There are DEFINITELY racists in our fanbase.
2. For SOME of Martin's critics, that was at least part of the problem.

Do you disupte either of those and if so why?

[BanditVol]

The partition was because he flat SUCKED (and still does) as a basketball coach.
You continued insinuations are not accurate nor appropriate.

I go by facts.  He took us to the final of the Sweet 16 last year and almost to the quarterfinals, which is as far as UT has ever been.

Can you or anyone explain to me what about that "sucks"?  Cause I don't see it.

But again, I am using FACTS and LOGIC, and not emotion and feelings, so....

But I would love to hear what about that run sucked.  Standing by....

[Tnphil]

The team and talent we had last year (2 NBA draft picks and 1 other playing overseas)and Josh Smith should have NEVER been on the bubble. They should have been solidly in the NCAA's a month before the SEC Tourney. We got in a play-in game by the skin of our teeth and got some good draws once we got there.

I was a big supporter of CCM when we hired him....stood behind him longer than most UT fans did until I saw we would be a yearly NIT team and a bubble NCAA team in the good years.....didn't and/or wouldn't have signed the petition....which I thought was in bad taste to do to a coach or team. But in hindsight was probably the ONLY reason we made it to and past the bubble. It lit a fire in the team that CCM didn't have the ability to do. It became them against the petition.

CDT IMO, can coach circles around CCM and has the ability to have his team play balls out for 40 minutes which I rarely saw a CCM coached team do.

[Live Orange]

But again, I am using FACTS and LOGIC, and not emotion and feelings, so....

Because my basketball knowledge is average at best I'm tiptoeing into this thread, but is it safe to say that Cuonzo's teams underachieved as where Bruce's and Donnie's teams overachieved? To me it seems that way and if that is the case then logic dictates that Cuonzo is not on the same level as the coaches that he succeeded and preceded. 

[PirateVOL]

I go by facts.  He took us to the final of the Sweet 16 last year and almost to the quarterfinals, which is as far as UT has ever been.

Can you or anyone explain to me what about that "sucks"?  Cause I don't see it.

But again, I am using FACTS and LOGIC, and not emotion and feelings, so....

But I would love to hear what about that run sucked.  Standing by....

We won the last year DESPITE Zo.  In case you missed it, we were the LAST team in, due to the poor season performance.
Did you even fizzleing watch his lack of coaching?????
He also couldn't recruit his way out of his on shadow.  Look at the bigs he brought in (don't forget Stokes was already committed). 
This team won more games than the team Zo was going to put on the court.  How many times did his teams quit?

[BanditVol]

We won the last year DESPITE Zo.  In case you missed it, we were the LAST team in, due to the poor season performance.
Did you even fizzleing watch his lack of coaching?????
He also couldn't recruit his way out of his on shadow.  Look at the bigs he brought in (don't forget Stokes was already committed). 
This team won more games than the team Zo was going to put on the court.  How many times did his teams quit?

Okay so how exactly is this season an improvement?  We struggled to make 0.500 and we got drilled on our home court in the regular season finale by the fourth worst team in the SEC, a team we had previously beaten FIFTEEN TIMES IN A ROW.  And for the record, Richardson is projected to go in the 2nd round of the NBA, so although we are thin on talent it's not bare either.

Again, I never said Zo was a great coach.  I do seem to see Donnie being held to a different standard.

I want Donnie to do well and I am giving him exactly the same chance I gave Martin.  But from where I sit, Martin's lack of performance was grossly overstated and I think people are too quick to give Tyndall credit.

Richardson was a huge part of our team this year and he is gone.  Recruiting seems to be going well enough, but with only 9-10 schollie players and our best player leaving, how well does Tyndall have to recruit to have us competitive and in the Dance by 2017 (not sure he can make it next year and am okay if he doesn't, but we better be there by 2017).

And how wll can he recruit with the NCAA hanging over his head, which is a situation entirely of his own making?

This is an improvement how? 

Having said that, I hope he shakes off the NCAA thing, recruits lights out, and has us in the tourney a year earlier than I expect because I defintely want what's best for the program.

But we will see...I think it's entirely possible he might not even match Martin's worst record and I will be very surprised if we even make the Sweet 16 on his watch.

But I will be very glad if we do. 

[BanditVol]

How many times did his teams quit?

Just noticed this part as I was rereading some stuff.  I don't know how many times Martin's teams quit.  I would say some, but I am certanly not going to go through all ~ 100 of his games and try and find out.  Even if I did, it would be a subjective call anyway.

Let me just turn that around on you.  How many times did this year's team quit?  I would say at least a few. 

[Creek Walker]

Donnie Tyndall is not being held to a different standard than Cuonzo Martin. You're judging the year three reaction to Martin by the year one reaction to Tyndall, which is a pretty silly way to approach it.

After his first year, which ended with an NIT bid, most UT fans would've defended Martin just the way they're defending Tyndall now. I, for one, thought that Martin did a pretty decent job in year one. The end-of-season run was impressive and gave me hope that years two and three would be better.

Unfortunately, that didn't happen. Take away the NCAAT run last year and your entire argument wouldn't have a leg to stand on. As Pirate already pointed out, we were the last team in and that team, with that talent, should've secured an NCAAT bid by the first of February. We all agreed going into the season that anything less than a Sweet 16 finish would be unacceptable. The only reason we got to the Sweet 16 was a very favorable draw. But let's ignore that and pretend that Martin's coaching against superior teams was the reason we got to the Sweet 16...two weekends of coaching does not override three years of coaching.

If, by the end of year three, Tyndall is looking like an NIT team every year under his watch, I guarantee you that you won't find many people defending him just as you didn't see many people defending Martin last spring. The petition might've been juvenile and silly, but Martin's coaching performance in Berkeley this season is proof enough that Martin didn't know what he was doing and would've never taken this program to the next level. If the petition is truly what drove him away (good luck proving that), the fans who signed it might just have done us a favor. Especially if Tyndall is as good a coach as he appeared to be this season.

Keep blowing about how this year's team didn't prove anything, but if you think Martin would've won 10 games with this squad, you're kidding yourself.

[BanditVol]

Keep blowing about how this year's team didn't prove anything, but if you think Martin would've won 10 games with this squad, you're kidding yourself.

Our performance across the board last year was not as bad as people made it out to be and the petiition was a bad joke.

Having said that, Pearl getting hired at Auburn has no doubt improved the climate for Tyndall and that's a good thing.

As for racism being at least a part of it, I noticed above that some refer to "national media".  No need to look so far afield, some of our own players tweeted their opinion that it was.

But how the heck would they know better than we fans?  They were only on the team, after all.   

[HerbTarlekVol]

Yeah and the whole idiotic petition to fire him never happened either, did it. 

Damnit Bandit, the petition never called for the firing of Cuonzo Martin.  Get your head out of the national media's ass and read the damned thing.

But even if it had, your assertion that is was racial is just plain bullshizzle and is countered by the fact that the guy the petition backed was a JEWISH man.  You seem to be glossing right over that fact.  If it is racial, then why would the petition signers be supporting a JEWISH man?  That just doesn't line up with your argument.

And as I have said a blue million times, I didn't sign the petition, and there are no checks and balances on how many people actually signed it.  It was an open petition. One didn't have to register with an email addy or in any way confirm who they were, or even that they were a real person.  It could have been 10K people signing it 3 times, or it could have been 3K people signing it 10 times each.  It was a meaningless non-checked Internet thing. 

Keep pointing that racial finger if you want, but remember that there are 3 fingers pointing back at you when you do.  Seems odd that you keep trying to bring that up. 

Bottom line:  Martin was so "mistreated" that he was offered a half million dollar per year raise and his contract was going to be extended to 5 years.  We should all be mistreated.  He made the decision to leave all on his own.  The powers that be did not force him out.
 

[BanditVol]

Damnit Bandit, the petition never called for the firing of Cuonzo Martin.  Get your head out of the national media's ass and read the damned thing.

But even if it had, your assertion that is was racial is just plain bullshizzle and is countered by the fact that the guy the petition backed was a JEWISH man.  You seem to be glossing right over that fact.  If it is racial, then why would the petition signers be supporting a JEWISH man?  That just doesn't line up with your argument.

And as I have said a blue million times, I didn't sign the petition, and there are no checks and balances on how many people actually signed it.  It was an open petition. One didn't have to register with an email addy or in any way confirm who they were, or even that they were a real person.  It could have been 10K people signing it 3 times, or it could have been 3K people signing it 10 times each.  It was a meaningless non-checked Internet thing. 

Keep pointing that racial finger if you want, but remember that there are 3 fingers pointing back at you when you do.  Seems odd that you keep trying to bring that up. 

Bottom line:  Martin was so "mistreated" that he was offered a half million dollar per year raise and his contract was going to be extended to 5 years.  We should all be mistreated.  He made the decision to leave all on his own.  The powers that be did not force him out.
 

So calling for the hiring of another coach is not implying that the current coach should be fired?  Do you ever read your posts and say "what does this look like and should I edit it first?".  Just curious.

[BanditVol]

Damnit Bandit, the petition never called for the firing of Cuonzo Martin.  Get your head out of the national media's ass and read the damned thing.

But even if it had, your assertion that is was racial is just plain bullshizzle and is countered by the fact that the guy the petition backed was a JEWISH man.  You seem to be glossing right over that fact.  If it is racial, then why would the petition signers be supporting a JEWISH man?  That just doesn't line up with your argument.

And as I have said a blue million times, I didn't sign the petition, and there are no checks and balances on how many people actually signed it.  It was an open petition. One didn't have to register with an email addy or in any way confirm who they were, or even that they were a real person.  It could have been 10K people signing it 3 times, or it could have been 3K people signing it 10 times each.  It was a meaningless non-checked Internet thing. 

Keep pointing that racial finger if you want, but remember that there are 3 fingers pointing back at you when you do.  Seems odd that you keep trying to bring that up. 

Bottom line:  Martin was so "mistreated" that he was offered a half million dollar per year raise and his contract was going to be extended to 5 years.  We should all be mistreated.  He made the decision to leave all on his own.  The powers that be did not force him out.
 

I never said the petition was racist.  I said that SOME of the folks signing it very likely were or are.  My my point is that there are DEFINITELY racists in our fanbase (I personally know some of them!) and that this was ONE FACTOR in the dislike of Martin. I never painted the University or majority of the fanbase as racist.

Hope that helps.

[volsboy]

Okay.We didn't like Martin because he's black. What's your point? The fact that we are not impressed with his coaching skills has no bearing on you. He was not let go or fired. He left on his own accord. That means we are racists. He was offered a good deal but declined it. Let it go.

[Memphisvolunteer]

I never said the petition was racist.  I said that SOME of the folks signing it very likely were or are.  My my point is that there are DEFINITELY racists in our fanbase (I personally know some of them!) and that this was ONE FACTOR in the dislike of Martin. I never painted the University or majority of the fanbase as racist.

Hope that helps.

So those fans you know are racist, do they not like UT football because probably 95% of the athletes that have made UT a national player are black?? Or is it coaching figures they don't like being black? I am curious about this.

[Memphisvolunteer]

So calling for the hiring of another coach is not implying that the current coach should be fired?  Do you ever read your posts and say "what does this look like and should I edit it first?".  Just curious.

Bandit - you should stop living in a glass house. When people answer your questions, you refuse to acknowledge that and go on a different rant so people wonder if you even read before you post again. Time and time again people have pointed out that last's years team should not have been the last team in the field with the talent we had. The only thing you have said is that last year wasn't as bad as it seemed! Really? Based on what? Your thoughts? If last year wasn't as bad as it seemed, why was ut the last team in the field with that amount of talent and the league as down as it was?  If last year wasn't as bad as it seemed, why did the committee make us play in a play in game? You refuse to acknowledge any of that.

[Memphisvolunteer]

Just noticed this part as I was rereading some stuff.  I don't know how many times Martin's teams quit.  I would say some, but I am certanly not going to go through all ~ 100 of his games and try and find out.  Even if I did, it would be a subjective call anyway.

Let me just turn that around on you.  How many times did this year's team quit?  I would say at least a few. 

Geez - you amaze me. I believe this team quit only twice all season. How many times did this team come back from double digits down in second half to win? I can't remember them coming back like that several times with the previous coaching staff. Tell me the plays  the previous staff draw up out of time outs? I saw that a lot this year.