I have seen a lot of calls to replace Butch

[PirateVOL]

I do not disagree in general terms.
I think he has improved the program, the skill level but seems to have hit a celling
Consistently says one thing but does not follow through within games - see player rotation as current example A

However, consider out last three coaching changes have resulted in the following:
Kiffin - never was a VOL, IMO would have landed us in more trouble with the NCAA than he initially did
Dooley - unmitigated disaster
Jones - righted the ship but seems to be persistently 1-2 clichés away from winning the SECE

Looking at the landscape I do not see a lot of realistically available talent we could perhaps lure a current high caliber coach to Knoxvegas.
I suspect we will have to take a chance on an upper level FCS coach or a mid level power 5 coach - pick your poison.

Currie is an unknown at this point.  He has made a lot of good moves but how does he handle a major fire/hire situation?  His Kansas record doesn't exactly give me warm fuzzies.

Bottom line, be careful what you wish for, we might just get it, see above.

[murfvol]

I completely agree about an indiscriminate hire. Butch has done a very solid job in some respects, and we can still have a fine season. Hopefully we do.

However, if things fall apart, we can get a decent coach if we get a guy with a proven record. If that's Bobby Petrino, Gary Patterson, or Mike Gundy you make the change. If not, you've gotta be careful.

Butch is exactly who his record said he was, a solid coach with a low ceiling. Dooley had a last name, but very little track record.

[murfvol]

Here's a wildcard I'm watching this year: Lovie Smith. If Illinois shows progress, he merits a serious look.

[Creek Walker]

If we're wiling to put up some serious cash, I don't think finding a proven winner will be a concern. If we continue the course set by Mike Hamilton and look for a bargain-basement coach, then we could very well go from the frying pan to the fire.

[HerbTarlekVol]

I've made it clear that I believe that Butch has a MAC level ceiling as a coach.  Saturday just underscored that belief once again.  The "we've got to get better with situational football" comment just blew my mind.  Isn't every play in a game "situational football"?  

My feelings are that if Butch has gotten the program as far as he is capable of, and we haven't seen anything to indicate otherwise at this point, that if UT is truly committed to playing for championships then it's time to move on.  

Doesn't matter who has been hired before.  Kiffin and Dooley are history, as are the ADs that hired/enabled them.  Currie is in charge now.  He needs to earn his money.  And I don't think Currie is going to stake his career on Butch Jones having success, either.  

Just because it hasn't been done right before doesn't mean you don't pull the trigger and move on.  Do it until you get it right.  

[HerbTarlekVol]

And an addendum:

I just want to see a coach who has enough damned sense to go under center with a lead blocking back and hand the ball to a power runner on first and goal from the 1. 

[BanditVol]

I'm with you Pirate.

I have never been a hugely enthusiastic advocate of Butch.  I did think he was a great improvement over the last two, and at least on par with Fulmer int he twilight years.  

And that's what we needed.  I have heard the complaints about his in-game skills, and noted some of them myself. I might not agree with all  the criticism, but some was certainly valid.

But...key point.  For the first 2-3 seasons, Butch was way down on the list of issues with this program.  First and foremost was lack of talent.  Next was development of talent.  Next was instilling a winning attitude and restoring confidence.  Next was gaining acceptance by media and respect from other teams.  And so forth.  In short, maybe item 6 or 7 was Butch's game day decisions.

Did he cost us the game with OU?  Possibly, but that we were able to build such a huge lead was a very pleasant surprise.  I thought that would take until 2016.  Did he cost us the 2015 game with Florida?  ABSOLUTELY!  But again...for the first time in 10+ years, we were FAVORED in that game.  That was such a nice change of pace that I crossed my fingers and hoped he would learn.

Which brings us to now.  We were ahead of schedule in 2015 IMO, fell behind last half of last season.  I give a pass for injuries to 2016.  

No pass for Saturday.  Butch's in game goofiness is now the no. 1 issue facing this program.

So...kid gloves are off, or whatever cliche you wish. It's actually now past put up or shut up time for Butch.  That I'm getting there later than others is because I credit the huge sucking black hole that Kiffin/Dooley left behind as hard to overcome.

Where I am with you though Pirate, is that (a) Butch hasn't done enough to get fired quite yet.  6-6 will do it IMO, 7-5 will likely be enough to stay, 8-4 and he's safe, and 8-4 or even better is still achievable.

If Butch puts together a decent season in spite of this horrific loss, then it makes sense to keep him another year.  Let's see how it plays out.

If we beat uga convincingly, make a good stand against bammer, and maybe slip up only against LSU, will anyone be calling for his head?  I don't think so.

The fact is, this team is good enough to have beaten Florida convincingly.  Butch blew it, but I am hoping he gets his head out of his arse and wins 7 or 8 games.  

Because whatever my frustration with him, IMO that's the best thing for the program.  

[PirateVOL]

If we're wiling to put up some serious cash, I don't think finding a proven winner will be a concern. If we continue the course set by Mike Hamilton and look for a bargain-basement coach, then we could very well go from the frying pan to the fire.

Two things:
1) we will not pay big bucks, haven't in the past and see no movement towards doing it in the future
2) I don't see a proven Power 5 coach EVER coming to Tennessee given its recent past

We are living the train wreck that Hamilton, with help from Currie, created.

[VinnieVOL]

Really kind of jealous of the schools who by resources and by timing and opportunity (which is key) found "their guy".  Obviously Bama struck it rich with Saban.  But more recently is Michigan and Jim Harbaugh.  I know he's still gotta beat OSU, but the moment Michigan hired him it felt like Michigan football was "back".

Then again there are recent examples of schools hiring their guy who was the hottest name in coaching and it not working out... Charlie Strong comes to mind.

It's just a tough situation, and obviously one where the AD earns his paycheck.  Me personally, I've sort of defended Butch too but I think Saturday is when I finally accepted the fact that, you know.. this really is the best we're going to get from him.  Pretty good, 9-4, 8-5, and better than Dooley.  It's not acceptable, but like Pirate said... tread lightly... fire him and yes there's a chance you strike gold and get your guy, but there's probably a better chance you get a guy who's about the same or worse.

[Creek Walker]

I agree with Bandit that the best hope is for Butch Jones to succeed. I have always wanted Butch Jones to succeed because I don't want another coaching change. I really, really, really don't like Butch Jones' cliches, coach-speak, and his whiny attitude towards any criticism that is directed his way. But if he wins, I'll call him my coach whether I like him or not. It's easy to look at next season and say the stage is set for a new coach to come in and win immediately. Fact is, Tennessee is going to have SEC East championship-level talent and experience next season. But it's tough for a new coach to come in and win immediately in a transitional year. I hate to see the talent go to waste next year, and I hate to see this recruiting class that is currently taking shape go to waste.

OTOH, I also agree with Herb. Who was it who said something along the lines of if you know change is inevitable, take care of it now? Time and time again we've said, "Maybe Butch will learn from this." But Butch hasn't learned from this. The only conclusion I can draw at this point is exactly what Herb says: Butch is so stubborn and egotistical that he's convinced his offensive approach is superior to everyone else's and, by gosh, he's gonna prove it.

It infuriates me that this program has won at Florida twice since 1971 and could have won by double-digits on Saturday. It infuriates me even more that we should've won the last two at Florida. Alabama and Florida are always going to be the measuring sticks for this program. Any UT coach gets a pass on Nick Saban right now. It's going to take time and stability to catch Saban. But Florida? Given that program's recent turmoil there is absolutely no reason we should not be surpassing them. Butch should be 3-1 against Florida and is 1-3 instead. That's not acceptable.

If Butch is willing to learn, fine. He's got the rest of this season to prove to us that he's willing to show a little humility, open himself to change, and make the concessions that are necessary for his team to stop tripping over his shortcomings. Obviously there will be no coaching change at Tennessee before the end of the season, so he's got plenty of opportunity left. If he beats everyone left on the schedule except Alabama and Georgia, he can finish 9-3 and buy himself some time. But I'll tell you one thing: I'm not holding my breath. There aren't many guaranteed wins left. Vanderbilt and Kentucky look very good. South Carolina is improved.

Most people would agree that 7-5 earns Butch another season, but let's pose this: What if he beats LSU (Orgeron is not a capable head coach), but loses to Vanderbilt and Kentucky, along with Georgia and Alabama, to finish 7-5? We will have lost to Vandy two straight years, and will have lost to both of the traditional SEC East doormats in the same season. Does that earn him another season? It shouldn't.

[Creek Walker]

Two things:
1) we will not pay big bucks, haven't in the past and see no movement towards doing it in the future
2) I don't see a proven Power 5 coach EVER coming to Tennessee given its recent past

We are living the train wreck that Hamilton, with help from Currie, created.

Let's just go get Gruden and be done with it. 

[PirateVOL]

Let's just go get Gruden and be done with it. 

On board with that proven Power 5 coach - oh wait ...
Besides, was told it was a done deal ... 5 years ago

but, within .1 nanosecond after Butch is out the door the first Grumour will be on the boards.

[LouisVOL]

I have been a "give him a chance" supporter.  I appreciate that Butch has greatly upgraded the tslent, and particularly the speed level.  What I can't accept, or even believe, is that gameday coaching has relegated us to being quite possibly the third best team in Tennessee.  Forget the SEC east, I just hope we can add state champs to our champions of life trophy case.  In-game coaching is truly abysmal.  I have seen enough.

[RockyMtnVol]

Hey, we had the defense lined up on the LOS this time.  Baby steps.

[HerbTarlekVol]

Hey, we had the defense lined up on the LOS this time.  Baby steps.

Can't afford to take baby steps in a big boy league.  Just won't get you any closer to the top.

[BanditVol]

Hey, we had the defense lined up on the LOS this time.  Baby steps.

 

[RockyMtnVol]

Can't afford to take baby steps in a big boy league.  Just won't get you any closer to the top.

It was a joke, Herb - let's not take the Keystone Vols too seriously.

[crockettman]

Agree...For better or worse he's the man for now..I just hope he and his new OC learn fast to run the ball on 1st and goal from the 1 and throw away that damned Seahawks play book..ugh!!!

[volsboy]

suspensions and recovering from a hurricane. This game should have been won. As it's been pointed out here many times, I don't know what I'm talking about in regards to Vol football. I do know what I see on the field and on the scoreboard, unlike what a lot of Vol fans on this board have been unwilling to acknowledge.  Name me five impressive coaching performances(games) from Jones in the regular season. He has coached in 51 games. It shouldn't be that hard. So go ahead a name five games in which the coaching was impressive in your opinion. It is hard. We laugh at horse face but he is 2-1 vs Jones plus 2 for 2 in SEC east titles. Will the Vols have a more impressive win this season than Vandy had over KState? Fortunately, the season is still young and the Vols can turn it around. For Jones sake, they better. I have been tired of everyone's excuses since the overtime loss to Oklahoma. I also know what a crap shoot hiring a new coach is. So if not Jones, then who. There could be a large coaching carousel this off season in the SEC. Jones seat got real hot after UF, but there are a lot of other SEC coaches with warm backsides too. It has almost got to the point that beating Saban is a fantasy at the vast majority of SEC schools. SEC used to have more good coaches than any league. Now it is down to Saban. Hell, Mason does more with less than the other coaches in the league. What happened to all the supposed talent Jones has recruited in regards to on field results and where is this talent in regards to this years team. IMHOP...our talent looks really depleated.

[Black Diamond Vol]

I do not disagree in general terms.
I think he has improved the program, the skill level but seems to have hit a celling
Consistently says one thing but does not follow through within games - see player rotation as current example A

However, consider out last three coaching changes have resulted in the following:
Kiffin - never was a VOL, IMO would have landed us in more trouble with the NCAA than he initially did
Dooley - unmitigated disaster
Jones - righted the ship but seems to be persistently 1-2 clichés away from winning the SECE

I consider Kiffin and Dooley to be a single blunder by the worst AD we've ever had.  Without a doubt, Kiffin should've been vetted more.  Then he skipped town, and Hamilton made a panic hire.  Really, Kiffin (and Hamilton) begat Dooley.  As for Butch, it's easy to point to what's happening right now and say he was a bad hire.  But I would submit that for where we were in 2012, he was a great hire.  Maybe not a home run, but a solid triple.  More than anything else at that time, this program needed and injection of talent and a dose of optimism.  And Butch brought both in spades.  We may laugh at things like "brick by brick" now, but nobody was laughing back then, especially when he landed two top-5 recruiting classes.  Unfortunately, it now appears he has taken us as far as he can.  But because of his efforts, this job is a lot more attractive now than it was 5 years ago.

Looking at the landscape I do not see a lot of realistically available talent we could perhaps lure a current high caliber coach to Knoxvegas.
I suspect we will have to take a chance on an upper level FCS coach or a mid level power 5 coach - pick your poison.

I would submit that there are more quality coaches out there right now than there have been during any of our previous coaching searches (Note that I'm not necessarily arguing for or against any of these guys.  In fact, I would be vehemently opposed to a few of them.  Just pointing out what's out there.):

You want established head coaches?  There are two guys out there right now who have played for and/or won a NC, are well short of retirement age, and are currently unemployed: Chip Kelly and Bob Stoops.  There's even a former Super Bowl Champion, UT's very own white whale Jon Gruden (I know, I know).

There are proven head coaches currently working at lower-tier jobs: Dan Mullen, Mike Gundy, Bobby Petrino (ugh), Mike Leach, Gary Patterson, David Shaw.

Up and comers?  Justin Fuente, Jeff Brohm, Mike McIntyre, Mike Norvell, PJ Fleck.

If we wanted to take a chance on a current assistant, perhaps the two brightest offensive minds in the game who aren't HCs yet are both UT alums- Tee Martin and Jim Bob Cooter (incidentally, Cooter was actually namedropped on HBO's "Ballers" last week.  That would be street cred with recruits right there).

That's just off the top of my head.  There's probably many more that I'm forgetting.  And I think many of not most of these guys would jump at the UT job if the money was right.

Currie is an unknown at this point.  He has made a lot of good moves but how does he handle a major fire/hire situation?  His Kansas record doesn't exactly give me warm fuzzies.

Bottom line, be careful what you wish for, we might just get it, see above.

Keep in mind that since the last time we searched for a coach, the entire UT power structure has been turned over.  We're also the most profitable program in the SEC now, whereas back then we were in debt up to our eyeballs.  And again, this is a much more attractive job today than it was 5 years ago.  As I posted the other night, an incoming coach would inherit a roster capable of winning at a high level right away.  That's very rare at this level.  And while Curry might not have the greatest hiring record at KSU (though to be fair, he only made one major hire- for basketball), he should face far fewer financial constraints at UT.

I've never been fan of the "Coach X isn't great, but who else ya gonna get?" argument.  I just think that if your program has plateaued, you can't be afraid to make a change.  

[BanditVol]

Two things:
1) we will not pay big bucks, haven't in the past and see no movement towards doing it in the future
2) I don't see a proven Power 5 coach EVER coming to Tennessee given its recent past

We are living the train wreck that Hamilton, with help from Currie, created.

Currie??? Do you mean Hart?

[Creek Walker]

Currie??? Do you mean Hart?

Currie worked under Hamilton in the UTAD.

[BanditVol]

Currie worked under Hamilton in the UTAD.

So...Pirate is on the Currie train.  Not!   

[PirateVOL]

I consider Kiffin and Dooley to be a single blunder by the worst AD we've ever had.  Without a doubt, Kiffin should've been vetted more.  Then he skipped town, and Hamilton made a panic hire.  Really, Kiffin (and Hamilton) begat Dooley.  As for Butch, it's easy to point to what's happening right now and say he was a bad hire.  But I would submit that for where we were in 2012, he was a great hire.  Maybe not a home run, but a solid triple.  More than anything else at that time, this program needed and injection of talent and a dose of optimism.  And Butch brought both in spades.  We may laugh at things like "brick by brick" now, but nobody was laughing back then, especially when he landed two top-5 recruiting classes.  Unfortunately, it now appears he has taken us as far as he can.  But because of his efforts, this job is a lot more attractive now than it was 5 years ago.

I would submit that there are more quality coaches out there right now than there have been during any of our previous coaching searches (Note that I'm not necessarily arguing for or against any of these guys.  In fact, I would be vehemently opposed to a few of them.  Just pointing out what's out there.):

You want established head coaches?  There are two guys out there right now who have played for and/or won a NC, are well short of retirement age, and are currently unemployed: Chip Kelly and Bob Stoops.  There's even a former Super Bowl Champion, UT's very own white whale Jon Gruden (I know, I know).

There are proven head coaches currently working at lower-tier jobs: Dan Mullen, Mike Gundy, Bobby Petrino (ugh), Mike Leach, Gary Patterson, David Shaw.

Up and comers?  Justin Fuente, Jeff Brohm, Mike McIntyre, Mike Norvell, PJ Fleck.

If we wanted to take a chance on a current assistant, perhaps the two brightest offensive minds in the game who aren't HCs yet are both UT alums- Tee Martin and Jim Bob Cooter (incidentally, Cooter was actually namedropped on HBO's "Ballers" last week.  That would be street cred with recruits right there).

That's just off the top of my head.  There's probably many more that I'm forgetting.  And I think many of not most of these guys would jump at the UT job if the money was right.

Keep in mind that since the last time we searched for a coach, the entire UT power structure has been turned over.  We're also the most profitable program in the SEC now, whereas back then we were in debt up to our eyeballs.  And again, this is a much more attractive job today than it was 5 years ago.  As I posted the other night, an incoming coach would inherit a roster capable of winning at a high level right away.  That's very rare at this level.  And while Curry might not have the greatest hiring record at KSU (though to be fair, he only made one major hire- for basketball), he should face far fewer financial constraints at UT.

I've never been fan of the "Coach X isn't great, but who else ya gonna get?" argument.  I just think that if your program has plateaued, you can't be afraid to make a change.  

you really think that Stoops or Kelly would come here, to coach in this circle jerk and with this fan base?

[Black Diamond Vol]

you really think that Stoops or Kelly would come here, to coach in this circle jerk and with this fan base?

All fan bases are crazy.  Especially in this league.  The craziest being a couple hundred miles to our southwest.  Didn't stop them from landing the greatest coach of his generation.  Just open the checkbook.  That's all that matters.

BTW, Stoops apparently followed all our recruits on Twitter the other day.  For whatever that's worth.