Home remodeling question...

[VinnieVOL]

In deciding on what home improvement project to do next, with our growing family (no, #2 is not on the way yet) I want to go ahead and finish our basement into living space.  Well, most of it.  I still want to leave a good portion of it for storage but I would like to finish a den, and perhaps two spare rooms to be used as a home office/bedroom/exercise room.

I'm debating on whether or not I want to try and research this and do it on my own.  Obviously it would save me money.  And while I do have basic hammer and nail capability, I've never really done work like this unless just helping someone out by being another body on the job.  Planning it myself seems somewhat overwhelming.  But, if I'm in no hurry I wonder if I could take it on.  But by "no hurry" I don't want it to just come to a halt and it be one of those started but never finished jobs.  My brother in law is an electrician so I wouldn't need to do the wiring (wouldn't want to anyway, to be honest... seems to be the most dangerous part of the project).  I would likely hire someone for the flooring, too.  So that basically leaves the rough in, framing, sheetrock, drop ceiling, etc.

I'm just curious if anyone here has taken on something like this, or has tried and given up or regretted it?  I think it would be rewarding.  But would I save enough money for it to be worth the trouble.  Hiring someone would allow me to enjoy my investment much sooner..

Any thoughts?

[BigOrange Maniac]

I say go for it. I converted my basement to living space a couple of years ago by myself, with some help from my dad and brother. I came from a construction-inclined family and although I definitely didn't inherit the skill, I did watch quite a bit of it growing up, so I had a basic idea of what I was doing. It's slow going, but — as you said — it's much more rewarding and you save a very nice chunk of money...which you can use to outfit your den with another Onkyo/Samsung flat-screen setup.

Framing and roughing everything in is a piece of cake, relative to everything else. You might need a little help lifting the walls into place, but aside from that it's a one-person job that can be completed in a few evenings after work. Plumbing is also not too terribly difficult as long as you follow those well-known basic principles of plumbing (hot on the left, cold on the right, crap only flows downhill and letting your butt-crack show is mandatory).

As you already said, letting someone else do the wiring is absolutely necessary (and the law, I believe). I did some of my wiring myself, but it's so easy to make a mistake that could result in a fire insurance claim further down the line. (Plus I nearly killed myself twice...there's no feeling like putting your hand into a live wire.   )

Drop ceilings can be aggravating but they're not difficult; just time-consuming to get it right. I was fortunate in that I was able to use drywall for most of my ceiling, but I did have to use some drop-ceiling in places.

Depending on what type of flooring you're planning to install (I did my own tile and hardwood and hire out the carpet installation), I would consider doing it myself and hiring out the sheetrock finishing as a tradeoff. Hanging sheetrock isn't difficult, but finishing it is a PITA. Unless you're experienced (I'm not), it's difficult to finish sheetrock and not have glaring imperfections that show up once you're finished.

It took me about 3 months to finish my basement, but it had been 2/3s finished by the original owner and I was ripping everything out and basically remodeling...moving wiring, moving walls, etc. There's nothing more aggravating that a remodel. It's much easier to start with cinderblock walls and a concrete floor and go from there.

[VinnieVOL]

I say go for it. I converted my basement to living space a couple of years ago by myself, with some help from my dad and brother. I came from a construction-inclined family and although I definitely didn't inherit the skill, I did watch quite a bit of it growing up, so I had a basic idea of what I was doing. It's slow going, but — as you said — it's much more rewarding and you save a very nice chunk of money...which you can use to outfit your den with another Onkyo/Samsung flat-screen setup.

Framing and roughing everything in is a piece of cake, relative to everything else. You might need a little help lifting the walls into place, but aside from that it's a one-person job that can be completed in a few evenings after work. Plumbing is also not too terribly difficult as long as you follow those well-known basic principles of plumbing (hot on the left, cold on the right, crap only flows downhill and letting your butt-crack show is mandatory).

As you already said, letting someone else do the wiring is absolutely necessary (and the law, I believe). I did some of my wiring myself, but it's so easy to make a mistake that could result in a fire insurance claim further down the line. (Plus I nearly killed myself twice...there's no feeling like putting your hand into a live wire.   )

Drop ceilings can be aggravating but they're not difficult; just time-consuming to get it right. I was fortunate in that I was able to use drywall for most of my ceiling, but I did have to use some drop-ceiling in places.

Depending on what type of flooring you're planning to install (I did my own tile and hardwood and hire out the carpet installation), I would consider doing it myself and hiring out the sheetrock finishing as a tradeoff. Hanging sheetrock isn't difficult, but finishing it is a PITA. Unless you're experienced (I'm not), it's difficult to finish sheetrock and not have glaring imperfections that show up once you're finished.

It took me about 3 months to finish my basement, but it had been 2/3s finished by the original owner and I was ripping everything out and basically remodeling...moving wiring, moving walls, etc. There's nothing more aggravating that a remodel. It's much easier to start with cinderblock walls and a concrete floor and go from there.

Thanks, your post is encouraging.  I was thinking about it over the weekend and the more I thought about it the more pumped I got to do it.  One of my other brothers in law did his basement and it looks great.  So coming into today I was in the "I can do this!" frame of mind, then I started googling the subject as well as talking to co-workers and I became somewhat hesitant.  I guess I just needed uplifting.     I guess my worst fear is to get all my materials spread out, getting into it and then realizing I took on more than I could handle.

I read a lot about mold/moisture considerations for the basement.  There are some DIY books I've spotted on Amazon that I'm going to read, but basically it sounds like you have to use one of several methods to waterproof the block walls and concrete floor.

I would not try carpet myself, but hardwood and tile seem more doable to me.  I've even seen some pretty nice looking laminate flooring.  I may do the den in a hard floor then hire out for carpet in the spare rooms.

You know, we're not really even hurting for living space.  It would just be nice to be able to spread out some more.  I'm fortunate to still be able to have a room as my home office, but once more kids arrive I know that'll be out the window.  I just get this sense that if I don't do it now it will be harder to do in the future.

[Inspector Vol]

Vinnie, I will be glad to try and help you out all I can if you decide to pursue it. I have spent nearly 30 years building and inspecting houses. I don't know it all by any means but I am sure I can help some if you have questions.

I would think very seriously about hiring the wiring, plumbing, drywall and insulation. You can hire someone to provide and install the insulation for what you can buy it for and you will still be left with installing it. You don't save any money. The drywall is hard to finish if you never have. best to leave that to the experts. Same with the wiring and plumbing especially the rough in work. You could save money by installing fixtures but i would hire the rough in at least. i almost forgot about the HVAC work too. Hire it done as well. Part of my reasoning for this is the technical knowledge involved and/ or the amount of labor involved.

Good luck whichever route you take.

[BigOrange Maniac]

Well, if you realize you took on more than you can handle, just organize a VTTW work day. Or make Stogie help.  

You definitely want to waterproof your floors and walls. I can't remember the brand of the stuff I used, but you just roll it on like a coat of paint. I also used some cement-like waterproofing paste (again, don't remember the brand) to fill some cracks in my floor and walls, but your house is so new you probably don't have enough settlement yet to have to deal with that. Waterproofing was a piece of cake.

Even with waterproofing, mold/moisture may be an ongoing problem based on how much of your basement is underground. We run a dehumidifier at all times, otherwise our RH climbs to 70% of more pretty quickly. But ours is below ground on 3 sides, so that makes a big difference. Also, since our basement mostly below ground and, thus, cooler, I didn't install central H/A. I use a gas fireplace for heating in the winter and a portable (non-window) A/C for the hottest days in the summer. The A/C has a dehumidifier built in, and that helps. We had some mold problems before remodeling and also a couple of heavy rain episodes where water actually seeped through some cracks, but we haven't had any of those problems since remodeling and resolving those issues. During the winter, the RH can actually get a little too low at times.

I like laminate flooring. I didn't use any of it in my home, but we did our office in laminate and it was a breeze...just snap it into place and go. Almost like working with Lincoln logs or Legos.  

No. 1 piece of advice: Get a nail gun!

[GreggO]

I say go for it. Think for a minute: the guys who actually do this type of work for a living aren't geniuses. So, you should be able to handle it as long as you educate yourself on each task. The real plus is you will get to keep the tools you buy for a lifetime and when you do have to hire something out, the likelyhood someone pulling the wool over eyes deminishes greatly. Also, doing the work yourself can save as much as 1/2-2/3 of the costs involved.


G

[VinnieVOL]

I wasn't planning to install central H/A either. Just judging by my bro in law who did his basement, his and mine are also underground on three sides and his basement is a comfortable temperature pretty much all the time. 

The waterproofing is what gave me most pause (as far as unknowns go), but it sounds like maybe it's not that big of a deal.

I'm still deciding on the sheetrock.  I know it will be a PITA, but it can't be that complicated.



I think Stogie would probably laugh at the prospect of helping me.. in fact, he's probably laughing at the thought of me taking something on like this.. ever since I "helped" him build his chicken coop.  That was an interesting experience.   

[RockinGrannyVol]

Vinnie, one note...my hubby can do, build,fix anything....but he does not do Sheetrock.   He said he'd hire it done...he can do it, but what takes him a week, a good Sheetrock guy can do in a day!

[VinnieVOL]

Vinnie, one note...my hubby can do, build,fix anything....but he does not do Sheetrock.   He said he'd hire it done...he can do it, but what takes him a week, a good Sheetrock guy can do in a day!

Yeah, just hanging flat sheets of sheetrock is one thing.  But then there are those nooks and crannies that you have to cut and fit.  Sounds pretty aggravating.

[VinnieVOL]

Another thing, where do you even begin to be able to figure out how much lumber, how much sheetrock you need?

[BigOrange Maniac]

Another thing, where do you even begin to be able to figure out how much lumber, how much sheetrock you need?

For lumber, just figure the total length of your walls. You'll need the appropriate length of 2x4 for top and bottom plates, then figure one 8 ft. 2x4 (I'm assuming since you're talking a basement that your ceiling height isn't over 8 ft.) for every 16 inches, plus an extra for each corner. (I've seen interior walls built on 24 inch centers, but it seems to me that 16 inch centers fits perfectly into the "better safe than sorry" mantra.)

So, for a 12 ft.-wide wall, you'd need approximately 12 8-ft. 2x4s and two 12 ft. 2x4s. You'll want some scrap pieces for your outside corners (to space out the inside 2x4 so you have something to screw the drywall to). Sheetrock comes in 4x8 ft. sheets, so you'd need 3 sheets (per side) for the same 12 ft. wall. Insulation usually comes in 32 ft. rolls so you'll need one roll for every 4 ft. width of outside wall.

[BigOrange Maniac]

The most difficult part of the rough work, for me at least, is framing in doors. I screwed up more than once because I got my rough opening for the doors wrong. It shouldn't be so difficult, but I'm terrible at math.

[LouisVOL]

Over a period of a lot of years and several houses, I have at last count remodeled over 10,000 SF of space, including over 4,000 of finishing basements.  You can do it.  You already have a handle on what you don't need to do (electric), what you probably can easily do (tile, hardwood, or laminate flooring), etc.  The one thought I leave you with--of all the remodeling I have ever done, I have finished maybe a total of 12 pieces of drywall.  That is how long it took me to realize that drywall is the nastiest, grungiest, dustiest, downright disgusting project on earth.  If you are looking for rewarding, drywall is at the very end of the list--there is no reward or good feeling about drywall.  Hire somebody, it will the best money you ever spent.

[GreggO]

The most difficult part of the rough work, for me at least, is framing in doors. I screwed up more than once because I got my rough opening for the doors wrong. It shouldn't be so difficult, but I'm terrible at math.

Although I've been a claims adjuster for over 30 years and hand-write contractor estimates by pricing costs for them, get them to agree to jobs for burn-outs, floods and hurricanes...... I cannot hammer a nail straight! I can, however tell you how much it costs because I've had to learn all that's involved.

That's neither here nor there except for the fact you are a homeowner; every tool you buy you will use again and again to pay for themselves, you will learn how to do it for yourself and save thousands in the future (which allows you to do more) and you will be proud of it.

BOM is correct that drywall is a booger. What I've always paid more to a contractor for regarding drywall is finishing a basement because of the moisture problems referred to above. The mud has to be really dry to finish it; buy a $30 moisture detector. Even if you don't do the job you can make sure the folks who do aren't sanding before its dry. You will use that meter for years. Plus, you can test yourself on one joint before you even hang the whole room - just two sheets.

Everyone is right that its not easy the first time, but you'll never be able to do stuff like this unless you give it a shot. You can stop anytime you feel overwhelmed.

However, one of the best rewards you will reap by taking this on is you will realize that one of the extra rooms you build will have to be your shop. Until you are able to back away slowly (escape) saying, "I'll be in the shop" (and finding it works), you will never know that value!


G

PS - If the men don't back me here on the last paragraph, question their manhood!   

[Inspector Vol]

Good rule of thumb for framing door openings, interior or exterior, add 5 1/2 inches to the size of the door for your header size. Then you will shrink that opening size by 3 inches when you put in the two jack studs or liners to support the header. That gives you the correct width for the door openings leaving enough room for some insulation and room to plumb and shim the door. If you frame the height at 82 to 83 inches from the finished floor height (whatever that is depending on what you use) the doors should work well.

To figure lumber needed for a wall just take the length of the walls and double it plus some for waste for the double top plates and order that single length amount of treated for the bottom plate because it is on concrete. Figure the studs at 1 for every foot of wall and then put them on 16 inch centers and that will be enough for studs, corners, tees and jack studs or real close to enough. 

[73Volgrad]

Vinnie, I have installed three kitchens in homes I have owned that included hanging gypsum board (or sheetrock to the unwashed). I do not mind installing gypsum board, but I would just as soon take a beating than to mud and sand the joints. I also do almost all repair and renovation work in my house.

If you have CMU (concrete masonry units or concrete block) walls, you will really need to build free-standing walls to isolate the gypsum board from CMU blocks. You will need to do this primarily to insure the wall is plumb. Add something to waterproof and/or insulate between the studs and the walls should essentially last forever. If you are building in basement under a occupied room, I would recommend soundproofing insulation.

If you are building it out for a den, if you add a big screen TV, amp, etc, the added heat will heat it in winter, but will also heat it in summer. Building codes will likely require some ventilation. If you put in a door to isolate from the house, then you will have stale air and CO2 buildup. Maybe it does not need a separate HVAC or connection to the house HVAC, but an exhaust fan will likely be a wise choice. If you ever need HVAC, Mitsubishi makes the slickest split system (wall hung fan coil) I have seen. I have bought and installed several at a place I worked. They are a heat pump system that work well in low demand areas, like basements. And you can install it later because it does not need duct.

All in all, remodeling is not for the faint of heart, but it is not that hard if you have any ability and patience. Good luck and realize it will not happen overnight. The satisfaction of doing it yourself and the boost to your self ego will be worth it. Besides, you can always find someone to finish it if you cannot.

[VinnieVOL]

Vinnie, I have installed three kitchens in homes I have owned that included hanging gypsum board (or sheetrock to the unwashed). I do not mind installing gypsum board, but I would just as soon take a beating than to mud and sand the joints. I also do almost all repair and renovation work in my house.

If you have CMU (concrete masonry units or concrete block) walls, you will really need to build free-standing walls to isolate the gypsum board from CMU blocks. You will need to do this primarily to insure the wall is plumb. Add something to waterproof and/or insulate between the studs and the walls should essentially last forever. If you are building in basement under a occupied room, I would recommend soundproofing insulation.

If you are building it out for a den, if you add a big screen TV, amp, etc, the added heat will heat it in winter, but will also heat it in summer. Building codes will likely require some ventilation. If you put in a door to isolate from the house, then you will have stale air and CO2 buildup. Maybe it does not need a separate HVAC or connection to the house HVAC, but an exhaust fan will likely be a wise choice. If you ever need HVAC, Mitsubishi makes the slickest split system (wall hung fan coil) I have seen. I have bought and installed several at a place I worked. They are a heat pump system that work well in low demand areas, like basements. And you can install it later because it does not need duct.

All in all, remodeling is not for the faint of heart, but it is not that hard if you have any ability and patience. Good luck and realize it will not happen overnight. The satisfaction of doing it yourself and the boost to your self ego will be worth it. Besides, you can always find someone to finish it if you cannot.

Thanks to you and thanks to everyone for the encouragement in this thread.  This thread has helped, along with the fact that I get the sense that my mother in law thinks I can't do it... that pushed me over the edge.   

You mention walls on the block wall, I've read some build a full wall frame and then my bro in law said he used what he called "furring strips" to space the sheetrock from the concrete block.  This is also acceptable,  yes?

As far as finishing the sheetrock, most of my house has knockdown textured walls.  I specifically remember my contractor telling me it would save on labor costs (not to mention, I really like the look of it).  So I may read up and try to do it on my basement walls.  I think you can rent the air machines that "splatter" the compound.

[midtnvol]

Absolutely!!! DIY is the way to go. Save big bucks. Don't have to wait on contractors, craftsmen, laborers etc. OK guys, I think he's bought into all this BS. Boy is he gonna be miserable. 

[Inspector Vol]

You can use the furring strips but you cannot insulate if that is all you do or you cannot insulate very much.

Looks like you have plenty of knowledge to draw on here so that should be a big help if you get stumped on anything. Good luck!

[VinnieVOL]

You can use the furring strips but you cannot insulate if that is all you do or you cannot insulate very much.

Looks like you have plenty of knowledge to draw on here so that should be a big help if you get stumped on anything. Good luck!

I'd planned on just painting on the waterproofer then applying furring strips to the waterproofed block.  The finished part of my basement will be underground, so I'm not planning on insulating the walls.  What do you think?

[BigOrange Maniac]

When we finished my father's basement we used furring strips and insulated sheathing. For whatever it's worth, my basement when partially finished was not insulated. The difference now that the walls are insulated isn't huge, but there is a bit of a difference.

Some will say to not use fiberglass insulation in the basement if you do decide to insulate because it will can retain water if your walls should happen to sweat or leak a little despite being waterproofed. I used fiberglass insulation in my basement, though.

[Inspector Vol]

I will second what BOM said. At least put some foam insulation board against the block wall. Also when you attach the strips you have made an avenue for moisture to travel because you have pierced your water proofing seal you painted on. Just a thought.

regarding what BOM said about fiberglass insulation, if you put up 2 by 4 walls around the basement give yourself about an inch of airspace on the back side. That way your insulation should not touch the blocks. Also think about your wiring too. If you put strips on you will have less room with which to install it. It will mean you will have put in metal protection plates to keep your drywall fastners and trim nails from penetrating your wiring because it will have no depth from the edge of the wall. If you put up a complete wall with air space it will be just like new construction and much easier for you.

My .02 would be to build the wall. Of course it isn't my money or my project. Just keep in mind with some of this stuff it is better to spend a little extra money on the front end than be upset you didn't do something later. You have one shot at doing this and whatever you decide you will have to live with from now on. This and other decisions are also affected by how long you plan on staying in the home. If you are going to stay there the rest of your life then build accordingly.

Your local building inspector, if he is worth his salt, should be a good source of knowledge if he is willing to share his opinions rather than just quote the book. He will likely have seen a lot of things that have went bad and should have some thoughts on various matters if he is willing to share. For me I like it when people come and ask about their projects. It is easier to prevent problems than it is to fix them after the work is done. What is in the book is all he can enforce but keep in mind built to code is just a minimum standard. It doesn't mean it is grade A work.

[EmerilVOL]

One thing I have seen on a lot of programs on HGTV and other networks is to put your waterproofing compaound on the block walls then build a full 2X4 wall and before you set the 2X4 wall up and into place to put a vapor barrier on the wall facing the block, then insulate the wall with chosen insulation (here is where I think some fo the recycled insulating materials like recycled jeans, etc might be a good thing to use) and then another vapor barrier facing into the room on the wall after you have it in place.  So what you have is a waterprrofed block wall, a layer or vapor barrier, 2X4 wall with insulation, and then another vapor barrier. 

It is code in Tennessee to have at least some type of air exhaust or venting in a basement area.  This is because CO2 is a slightly heavier component than O2 and you dont want to set off those carbon dioxide monitors......

[Stogie Vol]

I'd planned on just painting on the waterproofer then applying furring strips to the waterproofed block.  The finished part of my basement will be underground, so I'm not planning on insulating the walls.  What do you think?

I used furring strips and insulating foam sheets.  Also, the waterproofing stuff from your previous employer is good stuff.

[BigOrange Maniac]

73VolGrad and Emeril mentioned codes. Inspector Vol can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I'm almost certain that building codes don't apply. The state didn't adopt a uniform list of building codes for the unincorporated areas that didn't already have local codes until 2009, and at that time most counties opted out by a two-thirds vote of their local legislative body. (I remember because after our county opted out the state encouraged them to opt back in, saying that federal grant moneys might be jeopardized...but most counties never opted back in.) There were only 18 counties that didn't opt out of the state's codes requirement. Here's a list: http://www.tn.gov/commerce/sfm/homebuilding/Apply.shtml