If we lose to Missouri on Saturday

[JeffCountyVolFan]

we will have lost at least our last game to every school in the SEC.

Butch's SEC record:
vs UF 1-4
vs UGA 2-3
vs Bama 0-5
vs USC 3-2
vs Vandy 2-2
vs Missouri 2-2
vs UK 4-1
vs rotating SECW opponents 0-4
Overall: 14-23
Throwing out UK &Vandy: 8-19
Everyone but Bama: 14-18

I'd say that warrants another year. [Sarcasm, in case there was any doubt.]

[BanditVol]

Dooley was 4-19 in the SEC, including 1-14 in his last 15, with the sole win a close victory over Vandy in 2011.

So it's an improvement, and a big one.

Can it be better?  Absolutely.  But at least there has been progress.

[PirateVOL]

Dooley was 4-19 in the SEC, including 1-14 in his last 15, with the sole win a close victory over Vandy in 2011.

So it's an improvement, and a big one.

Can it be better?  Absolutely.  But at least there has been progress.

progress??

His team has REGRESSED significantly this year and the trends are worse

[JeffCountyVolFan]

Dooley was 4-19 in the SEC, including 1-14 in his last 15, with the sole win a close victory over Vandy in 2011.

So it's an improvement, and a big one.

Can it be better?  Absolutely.  But at least there has been progress.

Record wise, that is true.  I'll give Butch credit for that.  He has also helped things on the academic side and it can be argued that he has recruited better than Dooley, although that is subjective and the talent hasn't been 'coached up' to potential in his tenure (imo, of course).

Having said that, it can also be argued that the competition in the SECE has been at an all time low over the past several years.  Given that, the record improvement is less significant, I think.

Can it be better?  I'd ask 'Should it be better?  Much better?'  There is no way that this should be acceptable at UT.  

[BanditVol]

i agree.  But at least we were within a game of going to the SECC two years ago and were highly favored last year.  We never sniffed anything of the sort under Dooley, his best SEC record was 3-5. 

Granted, Butch's best SEC record was 5-3 and that's still not great, and there is still quite a ways to go. 

This year is particularly vexing because we should have won at least one of Kentucky, USC, Florida.   

You speak of the East being down. Georgia is not down in any sense, and UK and Junior are much better than they used to be. 

But I agree that we should have some SEC wins at this point in the season.  No question.

[RockyMtnVol]

i agree.  But at least we were within a game of going to the SECC two years ago and were highly favored last year.  We never sniffed anything of the sort under Dooley, his best SEC record was 3-5. 

Granted, Butch's best SEC record was 5-3 and that's still not great, and there is still quite a ways to go. 

This year is particularly vexing because we should have won at least one of Kentucky, USC, Florida.   

You speak of the East being down. Georgia is not down in any sense, and UK and Junior are much better than they used to be. 

But I agree that we should have some SEC wins at this point in the season.  No question.

We suck.  I'm surprised there's anything to debate.

[JeffCountyVolFan]

The fact that USCe and UK are even relevant is proof, imo, that the SECE is weak.

UGA is definitely not weak this season, though.  One strong SECE team does not a strong division make.

[73Volgrad]

And Tennessee used to be that strong team or at least in the conversation. Can anyone with a straight face say that any team in the East fears a Butch coached team? A Butch-coached team does not play to win; they play not to lose.

[73Volgrad]

Butch will lose at Missouri. I just hold out little hope that with this team as poor coached and injury riddled (from the poor strength and conditioning and teaching of techniques) has the talent to score enough points to outscore Missouri. LB talent is not there and the DBs are hurt and/or in the coaching doghouse.

It is the sign of a coach losing control of the players when you have to suspend starters for practice incidents IMO. If the players are talking back to coaches, it is a poor sign.

So no it is not IF but WHEN the team loses. I can only hop the team can beat Vandy.

[Tnphil]

This is a bad coached football team.....We can change out position coaches (which we've done) and see no improvement....it's the system. Like Doug Mathews said Sunday on his show the only way this offense can have success is having a QB (like Dobbs). If we don't then we have a offense that looks like the Worley...Dormady and Gitmo run offense. We have no backside offense unless the QB keeps it. We lead the defense to our ball carrier 99% of the time.

If you looked up 'How to fook up a football team' in the dictionary it would say....See Butch Jones.

[PirateVOL]

This is a bad coached football team.....We can change out position coaches (which we've done) and see no improvement....it's the system. Like Doug Mathews said Sunday on his show the only way this offense can have success is having a QB (like Dobbs). If we don't then we have a offense that looks like the Worley...Dormady and Gitmo run offense. We have no backside offense unless the QB keeps it. We lead the defense to our ball carrier 99% of the time.

If you looked up 'How to fook up a football team' in the dictionary it would say....See Butch Jones.

I tend to agree - look at how they attempted to use Dobbs his first starts (se Mo game in his first start as an example (a very cold night in Columbia) and you will see almost an identical view of this years Gitmo plays - they.do.not.trust. FR or others that haven't played much, to the detriment of the team

[LouisVOL]

Not directed toward you at all BanditVol, but we can't accept mediocrity, in all the turmoil of the last years we have somehow forgotten that we are Tennessee.  Thru 2000 we were the winningest program of the past 75 years.  We had off years and down periods, but we always bounced back.  Since Dickey arrived, with the exception of very few years, we were always at least "in the hunt".  And then began the downward spiral.  Call it bad decisions, bad luck, bad karma, witch's spell, gypsy curse, or whatever. As an administration, and a portion of the fanbase, we have come to accept "improvement" rather than excellence. Bottom line is improvement cannot be the standard.
 

Dooley was 4-19 in the SEC, including 1-14 in his last 15, with the sole win a close victory over Vandy in 2011.

So it's an improvement, and a big one.

Can it be better?  Absolutely.  But at least there has been progress.

[BanditVol]

The fact that USCe and UK are even relevant is proof, imo, that the SECE is weak.

UGA is definitely not weak this season, though.  One strong SECE team does not a strong division make.

Yes and no.  They have both recruited well compared to their historical norm, particularly Kentucky.

[BanditVol]

Guys, I'm not defending the current mess. I  am trying to make two points.

1. We could easily be sitting at 7-2 even with Butch as coach.  It was that close.  Of course, we could just as easily be 2-7.   
2. Butch was still a major upgrade over Dooley, and no matter how shizzlety this team is now, he deserves credit for that.  I still almost can't fathom 4-19 in the SEC.  You almost have to be deliberately trying to lose to "accomplish" that in the SEC.

Now, is this season a reversion to 2012?  I personally don't think so, although it may be close.  But I think these teams at least have more fight in them than Dooley's final year, so we have that going for us.   If we lose out and go 4-8, then record and product wise we will literally be worse than 2012.  But I would still insist we are better talent wise, and can maybe even expect a good season in 2018 with a new coach.  I knew we were going to suck in 2013 and even 2014, no matter what.  The current situation is different IMO. 

We just have to make sure we hire well....

[JeffCountyVolFan]

Bandit, imo it isn't about recruiting.  It's about coaching.

2015 Recruiting Rankings:  UT #5, USC #20, UK #45
2016 Recruiting Rankings:  UT #17, USC #26, UK #38
2017 Recruiting Rankings:  UT #15, USC #19, UK #31
Average Recruiting Rankings:  UT #12, USC #22, UK #38

SEC record 2017:  UT 0-5, USC 4-3, UK 3-3

Overall record 2017:  UT 4-5, USC 6-3, UK 6-3

[73Volgrad]

I keep reading about the fight and never give up of the team. It does not matter how much fight you have or never give up attitude if you are poorly coached and never put in a position to win. IMO Butch does not trust his players. Thus you have game planning and play calls that seem to setup failure. If the coach has no trust in his players, how can you expect the players to trust the coaches. Therefore, you get what appears to be a schism among the players. A Butch system requires highly talented and/or experienced players that can succeed in spite of coaching. At least that is the way I perceive this team under Butch.

[Tnphil]

I keep reading about the fight and never give up of the team. It does not matter how much fight you have or never give up attitude if you are poorly coached and never put in a position to win. IMO Butch does not trust his players. Thus you have game planning and play calls that seem to setup failure. If the coach has no trust in his players, how can you expect the players to trust the coaches. Therefore, you get what appears to be a schism among the players. A Butch system requires highly talented and/or experienced players that can succeed in spite of coaching. At least that is the way I perceive this team under Butch.

Butch want's to play players that practice well even thought some aren't the better players.....Being involved in the game for over 30 years some of the best players over those years played when the lights came on and were not great practice players....they were bored in practice. Turn them game lights on and they turned into different animals. That is just the way some athletes are made.....as a staff you have to be able to identify who those players are and adjust.

[BanditVol]

Bandit, imo it isn't about recruiting.  It's about coaching.

2015 Recruiting Rankings:  UT #5, USC #20, UK #45
2016 Recruiting Rankings:  UT #17, USC #26, UK #38
2017 Recruiting Rankings:  UT #15, USC #19, UK #31
Average Recruiting Rankings:  UT #12, USC #22, UK #38

SEC record 2017:  UT 0-5, USC 4-3, UK 3-3

Overall record 2017:  UT 4-5, USC 6-3, UK 6-3

I wasn't saying they recruited better than us, just better than they used to.  The gap between Junior and us isn't really that great, unfortunately.  UK is another matter.

I agree we should have won both games. 

[BanditVol]

Butch want's to play players that practice well even thought some aren't the better players.....Being involved in the game for over 30 years some of the best players over those years played when the lights came on and were not great practice players....they were bored in practice. Turn them game lights on and they turned into different animals. That is just the way some athletes are made.....as a staff you have to be able to identify who those players are and adjust.

What I go back to again is how Barnett and Sutton emerged in Butch's first year and were great the whole time they were at UT.  Butch had no choice but to play the young talent that first year or two (how could we forget, he mentioned it practically every week  ), and good things happened.  He has dramatically moved away from that this year.

Cases in point...why hasn't Will Ignont gotten a look at LB given how thin we are there?  Why is Jumper playing so much?  Why isn't Kongbo sitting more (I think both Phillips and Taylor are better).  The interior of our DL looks soft at times, why are the starters in so long?  And so forth....

Barnett was a 4-star, but Sutton only a 3, or maybe even a 2.  Who knows what unpolished diamonds are lurking on our bench?  Butch in his later years seems to stick with under performing starters IMO.

[Black Diamond Vol]

What I go back to again is how Barnett and Sutton emerged in Butch's first year and were great the whole time they were at UT.  Butch had no choice but to play the young talent that first year or two (how could we forget, he mentioned it practically every week  ), and good things happened.  He has dramatically moved away from that this year.

Cases in point...why hasn't Will Ignont gotten a look at LB given how thin we are there?  Why is Jumper playing so much?  Why isn't Kongbo sitting more (I think both Phillips and Taylor are better).  The interior of our DL looks soft at times, why are the starters in so long?  And so forth....

Barnett was a 4-star, but Sutton only a 3, or maybe even a 2.  Who knows what unpolished diamonds are lurking on our bench?  Butch in his later years seems to stick with under performing starters IMO.

Happens with a lot of coaches.  They don't know any of the players when they take a new job, so they're not loyal to anyone on the roster, upperclassmen or not.  In fact, they might show favoritism to the newer guys that they recruited.   But as the years go on, and the roster transitions to all "his" guys, he usually has to try and appease the veterans if he wants to keep the ear of his team.