VTTW Board Index
May 05, 2024, 09:33:01 EDT *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Game and TV Information - Next football game: Tennessee at Missouri, November 11, 2023, 3:30 p.m. ET, CBS. Go Big Orange!

Message Board Links - Wayne and Hobbes' Auburn Board, Mudlizard's Vitual Swamp
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Ken Pomeroy: evidence that scoring margin matters  (Read 1707 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Clockwork Orange
Heisman
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 21515



View Profile
« on: January 30, 2013, 04:49:49 EST »

This is about basketball but it is no reach to think that it applies to football (and it's far more important in football with the BCS computers not being allowed to use MOV at all). The most revealing pieces are below and the link is at the bottom.

Quote from: KenPom
I looked at all cases in the last ten years where there were rematches in a single season to see how well scoring margin in a home game predicted the outcome of the next road game (or games) in a series. I’ll present the results in three charts. The first one plots the scoring margin in the initial home game against the average scoring margin in the road rematch for those cases.



The chart above shows, quite clearly, that MOV in the home game is highly correlated with the MOV in the road rematch. The more a team wins by at home, the more a team wins by on the road . . . and significantly, this is true way out on the x-axis . . . meaning that very large MOV tell you a significant amount about the chances of each team in the rematch. As he says in the blog, the above is remarkably linear. It's a much closer relationship than I would ever expect.

But what about probability of winning the rematch rather than MOV of the rematch? Isn't that what counts if we are trying to make predictions?

Quote
Let’s do the same exercise, but compare home margin of victory to that team’s chance of winning the road rematch.



The conclusion is the same as the scoring-margin plot. The bigger you win (or lose) the first game, the more likely you are to win (or lose) the rematch. The data gets noisy beyond 30 points, so here it is in table form for larger ranges.

Code:
 1st game    Road     Road
  margin      W-L     Win%
-41 to -50    0-3      0.0
-40 to -31    3-58     4.9
-30 to -21   39-265   12.8
-20 to -11  250-1162  17.7
-10 to -1   814-2326  25.9
  1 to 10  1518-2415  38.6
 11 to 20  1311-1224  51.7
 21 to 30   473-311   60.3
 31 to 40   151-54    73.7
    41+      32-5     86.5

So the more you win by at home, the more likely it is that you win the road rematch. This is not surprising in general, but it's interesting that there is a pretty big difference between 11-, 21, 31-, and 41-point wins.

It's also true that this has serious consequences. It means that MOV, even at the extremes, gives significant information about the quality of a team. RPI does not consider MOV. As far as I know the NCAA selection committee puts very little weight (if any) on MOV.

And the BCS has, for years, explicitly removed MOV from consideration in the computer polls, even though there is substantial evidence that it tells you a great deal about the quality of a team. I've been railing against it all the way back to the days when I had my own computer ratings, but KenPom provides some really nice quantitative evidence here from basketball (in a way that would be impossible to do in football, with so very few rematches).

EDIT: Whoops. I forgot the link: http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/entry/evidence_that_scoring_margin_matters
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 04:59:03 EST by Clockwork Orange » Logged

"Stay patient and be strong, 'cause it's gonna hit. And when it hits, it's gonna hit hard."

BanditVol
Heisman
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 23695


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2013, 06:39:19 EST »

So what these results tell us is that a large MOV in home games predicts a large MOV in road games?  Hm.  It is amazingly linear but I don't find much surprising about it, at all.   

As for your comments on the BCS, you neglected to mention that the logic of removing MOV from the computer polls is that the human polls do factor it in, and those out-weigh the computers anyway.

I suspect football is less correlated, due to what I would call the "non-linear scoring".  That is, one TD is much more of a difference-maker than one bucket.  Also, football games probably tend to get out of hand earlier, leading to blowouts that might be worse than they look.  Of course teams score in garbage time also even when down big, so maybe that part of it evens out.  But I think the larger "basic unit" score in football would lead to a less linear result, and my subjective experience from the past seems to confirm this.  It's not unusual at all to see a close game between two good teams but a blowout between one of the same teams and a different (on paper) equivalent team.

And of course rematches are very rare in college football, but LSU-bammer from last year's BCS was definitely not a predictor.
Logged

"The speed of our movements is amazing, even to me, and must be a constant source of surprise to the Germans.”  G. Patton
Clockwork Orange
Heisman
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 21515



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2013, 07:19:19 EST »

Quote from: BanditVol
So what these results tell us is that a large MOV in home games predicts a large MOV in road games?  Hm.  It is amazingly linear but I don't find much surprising about it, at all.  

Nor should you, yet the people who set up brackets and put teams in championship games insist upon ignoring this fact to the largest degree possible. Note that the point of KenPom's study was NOT about winning at home and on the road . . . it was one win predicting another with as much held constant as possible-- in this case playing the same team.

Quote from: BanditVol
As for your comments on the BCS, you neglected to mention that the logic of removing MOV from the computer polls is that the human polls do factor it in, and those out-weigh the computers anyway.

To my recollection that was not-- at all-- part of the reasoning for removing it. The fact that it was very important to voters was actually ignored in the process. It was an attempt at influencing the behavior of coaches in the case of mismatches on the football field . . . to remove the incentive to RUTS. And it didn't work at all since, as you noted, the voters love RUTS more than computers ever could. This was NOT an effort to improve the accuracy of the rankings; rather it was an effort to not encourage hurt feelings. And it was an ignorant change no matter how you look at it.

Quote from: BanditVol
I suspect football is less correlated, due to what I would call the "non-linear scoring".  That is, one TD is much more of a difference-maker than one bucket.  Also, football games probably tend to get out of hand earlier, leading to blowouts that might be worse than they look.  Of course teams score in garbage time also even when down big, so maybe that part of it evens out.  But I think the larger "basic unit" score in football would lead to a less linear result, and my subjective experience from the past seems to confirm this.  It's not unusual at all to see a close game between two good teams but a blowout between one of the same teams and a different (on paper) equivalent team.

I don't think that would make the association weaker (though there's no guarantee it would be linear); it would just add to the variance. If anything I would think the association would be more consistent since there is less parity in football. It's hard to say and pretty much impossible to demonstrate with data, though.

Quote from: BanditVol
And of course rematches are very rare in college football, but LSU-bammer from last year's BCS was definitely not a predictor.

No, but I believe football is far more deterministic than basketball. Only in very closely matched teams in football would I say the loser of the first game would have more or less even chances of winning the second game. In basketball the loser of the first game very, very frequently wins the second and not necessarily because the teams are even. The effect of one or two players on a basketball game cannot be overstated and the result is a much wider variety of upset victories. So in that sense, the tight clustering around the line in the above graphs should be more surprising than our initial reaction, and for the same reason we should see an even tighter relationship in football (sans the variance due to scoring in larger clumps) since there are fewer upsets between disparate teams.

But of course this is speculation.
Logged

"Stay patient and be strong, 'cause it's gonna hit. And when it hits, it's gonna hit hard."

Quasi EVol
Guest
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2013, 08:18:57 EST »

The Colley Matrix certainly demonstrates why MOV is relevant in the BCS:

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/10/one-bcs-computer-still-has-notre-dame-ranked-no-1/related/

 
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!