Wow. Replacement refs are going to take some MAJOR heat tomorrow...

[Black Diamond Vol]

Packers lead 12-7, Seattle has the ball at about the 35.  Last play of the game, they throw a hail mary into the endzone, it's clearly intercepted by GB's Jennings, but Seattle's Golden Tate basically takes it from him after both players fall to the ground.  Refs call it a TD, they review, and the call stands.  Seahawks win. Terrible, terrible officiating.

[midtnvol]

This (and some other games) may force the NFL's hand in the negotiations.

[Black Diamond Vol]

This (and some other games) may force the NFL's hand in the negotiations.

I just hope they get it settled before the refs cost the Falcons a win.  Because clearly, that's the only thing that can stop the Dirty Birds this year. 

[midtnvol]

They will stump their toe again this year. They ARE the Falcons after all.

[BanditVol]

I thought Tate got his hands on the ball at the same time as the defender, and he actually never took it away, but ties go to the receiver.  It was close anyway. 

At the same time, Tate clearly pushed off and should have been called for offensive pass int.  But when are they ever going to call that on a game ending hail mary????   

[Volznut]

Worst call in decades. It was almost as if Dooley was GB's coach.

[PirateVOL]

Twice, once in the air and when they were first on the ground, sole possession was GB's - it was a pick, pure and simple.

[Black Diamond Vol]

Worst call in decades. It was almost as if Dooley was GB's coach.

Yep.  If the NCAA had to use replacement refs, and there was one call that was the breaking point, you KNOW it would come against us.

[droner]

The officiating is bad and it's figuring into the outcomes. But I don't want to hear the team owners say anything about it. They could end this mess today. They can take their pick, fork over the dough today or lose out on the dough tomorrow. I love quandries for a bunch of old rich guys.

[ReVOLver]

I thought Tate got his hands on the ball at the same time as the defender, and he actually never took it away, but ties go to the receiver.  It was close anyway. 

At the same time, Tate clearly pushed off and should have been called for offensive pass int.  But when are they ever going to call that on a game ending hail mary????   

There is a picture floating around showing Jennings with full control of the ball with Tate's arms around Jennings' neck. He grabbed the ball after the fact. Clear INT.

[BanditVol]

There is a picture floating around showing Jennings with full control of the ball with Tate's arms around Jennings' neck. He grabbed the ball after the fact. Clear INT.

Yeah I got a closer look this morning and it was less close than I thought.  Was watching a much smaller screen in a crowded room last night.  It definitely was close though.

I never saw Tate's arm around his NECK though.  More like one hand up inside the ball with another on his arm.  It could be that the one hand moved up from the arm to the neck, IDK.

[VinnieVOL]

Yeah I got a closer look this morning and it was less close than I thought.  Was watching a much smaller screen in a crowded room last night.  It definitely was close though.

I never saw Tate's arm around his NECK though.  More like one hand up inside the ball with another on his arm.  It could be that the one hand moved up from the arm to the neck, IDK.

Don't take this the wrong way, but do you just enjoy debating and/or playing devils advocate?

You're literally the only person I've seen or heard say it was "close".

[ReVOLver]

Yeah I got a closer look this morning and it was less close than I thought.  Was watching a much smaller screen in a crowded room last night.  It definitely was close though.

I never saw Tate's arm around his NECK though.  More like one hand up inside the ball with another on his arm.  It could be that the one hand moved up from the arm to the neck, IDK.

http://pics.lockerz.com/s/247483112

[BanditVol]

http://pics.lockerz.com/s/247483112

Great.  But that's after they've been rolling around on the ground for awhile, or at any rate after they are on the ground. 

My opinion that it was "close" is based on my initial impression of the catch while they were both still in the air. I am aware that "ties go to the receiver" and so the key question is, "was the catch SIMULTANEOUS?".  Some would argue that Tate never did enough for it to qualify as a catch.

Well here's the deal.  This morning as I was getting ready for work, they showed this play from every conceivable angle on the NFL Network.  I went through about three of the views frame by frame.   When Jenkins caught the ball, it was clearly slipping through his hands for several frames.  He didn't establish possession until at least 5-6 frames into it (I didn't count exactly).  It took him that long to get  a grip on the ball.  On the 7th frame, Tate clearly has two hands on the ball (which you can see getting closer in the previous 5-6 frames).

What happened on the ground doesn't matter.  The key was that they had to review if the catch was "simultaneous".  How long Tate had possession and what happened on the ground later is material to the case, but the replay did not extend that long.     So I have no idea what happened between those first 6-7 frames and the pic you posted, so I have no opinion on it.

So based on my very careful review of the frame by frame, I thought it was indeed close.  I do absolutely think Jenkins had the ball first and never said otherwise.

Now, here's what the NFL has to say:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-packers-seahawks-hail-mary-20120925,0,1195738.story


It's kind of complicated, but the NFL has stated the initial ruling of "simultaneous catch" was in fact not over-turned because it was not considered incontrovertible.  Whether that's true or not, I don't know.  Having conducted my own video review this morning, I could look at the video and decide Jenkins had possession by one frame.  One frame is about 0.05 seconds or 0.1 seconds. 

Is that enough time to establish sole possession "incontovertibly"?

As for what happened on the ground, how long does Tate have to have his hands on the ball to establish "simultaneous possession"?

All very interesting questions.

But the fact that the league office stated that the video evidence was close enough to not overturn the call supports my opinion.   

[BanditVol]

Don't take this the wrong way, but do you just enjoy debating and/or playing devils advocate?

You're literally the only person I've seen or heard say it was "close".

Two things.  One, I did a lot more research than most people (see response to Revolver).  Two, how many opinions have you heard?  The NFL issued a statement today that said the ruling in the video booth was that it was not incontrovertible to overturn the call (again see response to Revolver).

To be clear, I am not and have never said it was the right call.  I am only saying that based on slowing down the video frame by frame, that Tate got both hands on the ball a very short time after Jenkins had a firm grip.  I established this opinion by actually looking at the video, not by what others said.

So you could, if you wanted, look at the video on your own...what is it now...200-inch ?    ... HDTV and form your own opinion as to whether it was a "simultaneous catch" or not.  To be clear, I only mean the time frame it took Tate to get his hands on the ball, not how long he kept them there. 

Does that answer your question?

And yes, I do enjoy a good debate.  You haven't figured that out yet?   

[VinnieVOL]

Two things.  One, I did a lot more research than most people (see response to Revolver).  Two, how many opinions have you heard?  The NFL issued a statement today that said the ruling in the video booth was that it was not incontrovertible to overturn the call (again see response to Revolver).

To be clear, I am not and have never said it was the right call.  I am only saying that based on slowing down the video frame by frame, that Tate got both hands on the ball a very short time after Jenkins had a firm grip.  I established this opinion by actually looking at the video, not by what others said.

So you could, if you wanted, look at the video on your own...what is it now...200-inch ?   

 ... HDTV and form your own opinion as to whether it was a "simultaneous catch" or not.  To be clear, I only mean the time frame it took Tate to get his hands on the ball, not how long he kept them there. 

Does that answer your question?

And yes, I do enjoy a good debate.  You haven't figured that out yet?   

Touche.   

I will say that you're the most thorough poster here which tells me that you dont disagree with others for the sake of it.

I felt bad about the way my question sounded, so I apologize for that.  I appreciate the time you put into your posts.

[WoodstockVol]

I just hope they get it settled before the refs cost the Falcons a win.  Because clearly, that's the only thing that can stop the Dirty Birds this year. 

I'd hate to see the Falcons screwed out of a win by the scab Referees!

[ReVOLver]

Great.  But that's after they've been rolling around on the ground for awhile, or at any rate after they are on the ground. 

My opinion that it was "close" is based on my initial impression of the catch while they were both still in the air. I am aware that "ties go to the receiver" and so the key question is, "was the catch SIMULTANEOUS?".  Some would argue that Tate never did enough for it to qualify as a catch.

Well here's the deal.  This morning as I was getting ready for work, they showed this play from every conceivable angle on the NFL Network.  I went through about three of the views frame by frame.   When Jenkins caught the ball, it was clearly slipping through his hands for several frames.  He didn't establish possession until at least 5-6 frames into it (I didn't count exactly).  It took him that long to get  a grip on the ball.  On the 7th frame, Tate clearly has two hands on the ball (which you can see getting closer in the previous 5-6 frames).

What happened on the ground doesn't matter.  The key was that they had to review if the catch was "simultaneous".  How long Tate had possession and what happened on the ground later is material to the case, but the replay did not extend that long.     So I have no idea what happened between those first 6-7 frames and the pic you posted, so I have no opinion on it.

So based on my very careful review of the frame by frame, I thought it was indeed close.  I do absolutely think Jenkins had the ball first and never said otherwise.

Now, here's what the NFL has to say:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-packers-seahawks-hail-mary-20120925,0,1195738.story


It's kind of complicated, but the NFL has stated the initial ruling of "simultaneous catch" was in fact not over-turned because it was not considered incontrovertible.  Whether that's true or not, I don't know.  Having conducted my own video review this morning, I could look at the video and decide Jenkins had possession by one frame.  One frame is about 0.05 seconds or 0.1 seconds. 

Is that enough time to establish sole possession "incontovertibly"?

As for what happened on the ground, how long does Tate have to have his hands on the ball to establish "simultaneous possession"?

All very interesting questions.

But the fact that the league office stated that the video evidence was close enough to not overturn the call supports my opinion.   

Once one person establishes sole possession, there cannot be simultaneous possession, so if you say that Jennings had possession first, the discussion is over. Even if there is simultaneous possession initially, if either person loses possession in the process of making the catch, before the catch is finished, it cannot be simultaneous possession. Going to the ground is part of finishing the catch.

The NFL has a vested interest in upholding the call. Their opinion means nothing.

And I don't care how much research you do, you enjoy being the voice of dissent and it's obvious. You often do a lot of research but fail to focus on the most relevant points... I mean you admitted that the defender had possession first. You cannot come in and grab the ball after it is caught and establish simultaneous possession. Therefore you disproved your own argument that it was close.

[BanditVol]

Once one person establishes sole possession, there cannot be simultaneous possession, so if you say that Jennings had possession first, the discussion is over. Even if there is simultaneous possession initially, if either person loses possession in the process of making the catch, before the catch is finished, it cannot be simultaneous possession. Going to the ground is part of finishing the catch.

The NFL has a vested interest in upholding the call. Their opinion means nothing.

And I don't care how much research you do, you enjoy being the voice of dissent and it's obvious. You often do a lot of research but fail to focus on the most relevant points... I mean you admitted that the defender had possession first. You cannot come in and grab the ball after it is caught and establish simultaneous possession. Therefore you disproved your own argument that it was close.

I said that the difference in time for the receiver to establish simultaneous possession was 0.1 seconds or less.  Try watching it full speed.

The NFL replay booth ruled that it was not incontovertible, and they were not replacement refs.

But at the end of the day it's my opinion, and opinions can and will vary.

[Volznut]

It wasn't close. NFL playing politics.