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ut-mulling-cease-and-desist-letter-on-prayer. This may not be the place for this topic, but we are living in a society where the minority population has the upper hand over the general population. It's wrong, period. 

I'm sorry but anyone who would complain about that is just plain mean.

Utterly ridiculous.

The few can kiss the many's arse!

It is mean, it is ridiculous, and yes the few can kiss you know where. But the fact remains that this small fraction of society is growing and growing in influence. I do believe that the talking heads in the Chancellors Office will bow down to the demands of that small fraction of society. When they do I very well may never attend another Volunteers Football game. I'll be there this Saturday with my son becasue he bought me two tickets for my birthhday. But that may just be it for me, I can support my Vols from home where I can not be punished for my beliefs.

Christian faith will be outlawed...we shouldn't be surprised as it was foretold. Look around at world events and you can clearly see that the signs of the approaching end times are rapidly developing.

Probably not going to be a popular opinion, but I see the argument that this should be eliminated.  First off, I am a Christian and believe in prayer.  I also believe in witnessing to those who are not saved.  I just believe that in this country, the Constitution does not provide for a state-funded institution to "lead" in a religious activity (thereby promoting that religion).

In my opinion, the fact that the majority wants it is irrelevant because the Constitution prohibits state controlled religion, and UT is a state institution.  I would not want a UT led activity to begin with an atheism based indoctrination simply because the majority of attendees was of that mindset.  I would not want a UT led activity to begin with a Muslim led prayer for the same reasons.  

What I would like to see instead:  A moment of silence, where the entire crowd takes it upon themselves to recite The Lord's Prayer (without the use of the PA or without a UT selected prayer-giver) - and in this scenario there would be nothing that the opposition could challenge because it would not be an institutionally orchestrated action, thereby in no way violating anyone's constitutional rights.

Just my opinion.

It doesn't surprise me at all and I agree with you 100%.

Matthew 6:5-6

churches to use the capital building for church services etc.....it's clear that if they really intended no public display of faith anywhere on public grounds they would not have done so.

Congress has a paid Chaplain and they open each session with prayer to God asking for guidance and blessings upon the very people that our vote put in office. There is no difference between that and opening prayer at sporting events.

1) I think the complaint is crazy because student organizations are involved and the opportunity to pray is given to all groups.

2) I'm good if the "prayer" is done away with. Here's why. I believe in an omnipotent God who is holy and can be known. That being the case I have often said most prayers at Neyland don't clear the light towers. It's my belief very little of what is uttered is a prayer. They're either words meant to be clever or devoid of any semblance of an address to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love it if everyone at Neyland prayed, but my take is those inclined to prayer can do so and those who aren't probably see a very poor model for it. Most "prayers" there give Christianity (ostensibly the domiant religion of those praying) as bad a name as TV preachers.

 http://m.knoxnews.com/news/2012/sep/19/ut-prayer-before-games-not-unconstitutional/  (http://m.knoxnews.com/news/2012/sep/19/ut-prayer-before-games-not-unconstitutional/)

All I can say is every UT fan in that stadium is gonna be praying if a game comes down to us making a field goal.

Hahaha!  Hilarious, but true!

They guy that has prayed the pre-game prayer for the fist Vol home game for the past 10 years goes to my church. And I will tell you that his prayers get through ("The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much" ) as he is a righteous man if ever there was one. He has a prayer booth on campus and has the respect of many an admin at the school, and has helped many a student, domestic and foreign, through tought times. And besides, he is 10 for 10, with a Vol win in each of those 10 home openers.   :dance:

If you are trying to say all public prayer is a no no because of that scripture, then I believe you are missing the intent of the passage.

If not please expand on your thought.

This is why UT should not do a prayer:


And this is why Christians shouldn't care:


For the record, it doesn't bother me enough to lodge a complaint or file a lawsuit-- I'm probably just used to it. I just look quietly around while everyone is bowing their head in prayer, appreciating the still and the quiet for a few seconds before the crowd works into a frenzy for pregame and the running through the T. If they removed the prayer, that'd be fine too.

Maybe I'd be more disturbed if I thought football at Neyland was played to honor God, but it seems to be entertainment. Sure, football is neither good nor bad. It just is.

This isn't to say Neyland is a den of iniquity, but given the number of inebriated fans and amount of profanity used it really doesn't strike me as a place full of people who care about honoring God (obviously there are plenty who do). If people bow their heads and then scream about the bleep, bleep, bleeping playcall that's kind of pointless.

The good thing is I can always pray if I want to. It doesn't even have to be out loud and my eyes don't have to be shut. And if I'm praying I've got to confess it's not about football.  :smile:

In short, I can always have a pregame, mid-first quarter, second timeout of the third quarter, fifth turnover,  or whenever prayer.

Again the central message of that passage IMHO is not abolishing public prayer.  It is admonishing those who do so just to impress people or themselves.

If it gives Glory to God and represents what Christianity is all about then it is ok from God's POV.

We are also to pray in secret (alone). The two are not mutually exclusive according to scripture.

Arguing against as a separation of Church and state is a valid argument, even if I disagree, but using that passage as an argument against it is not the route to take.

Well said Inspector. Self-aggrandizement is no good, but a humble prayer is fine anywhere. Hey, the reason I'm a Christian is because I'm messed up and powerless to save and change myself. If I was a great guy I wouldn't need God.  

Which is why I said it's why Christians shouldn't care, not why it's wrong to have the prayer.

Yeah, I'm with you on this Clock. It matters not one iota to me.

My bad. I was operating from the position of using it to prohibit (my response to JVJ post) since that premise was not corrected I just carried it on to your response.  No worries.

No worries here either. I just wanted to be understood (don't we all  :smile:).

No disrespect intended, but you asked.

I find the Bible to be like a Rohrschach test.  People see in it whatever they need to validate what they want to believe.  That doesn't mean that people are not sincere or didn't take their Bible studies seriously.  It's just a consequence of human nature.  Motivated reasoning.

This is why denominations vary so greatly in their interpretations, why ministers and their flocks can sincerely take positions that (at least to me) seem utterly unlike what Jesus would say, and why you and I don't agree on this interpration.  For which we both blame each other.

In this chapter some people ask Jesus how they should pray.  He very clearly tells them.  To me his instructions contradict prayer in Neyland stadium.

1.  It's a public spectacle, not private.
2.  Given the environment of a college football game, one has to be blind (IMHO) not to see the parallel to the criticism Jesus was making of the Pharisees.  Bear in mind that they probably felt themselves sincere as well.  Even if one gives a liberal interpretation of Jesus's instructions to not preclude public prayer, the gladiator scene hardly fits with "giving glory to God".  Neither does Tebowing for the cameras because you scored an important touchdown.

You disagree, which is not surprising.  It may well be that my interpretation of scripture is unfounded.  And it may well be that you are having the Bible conform to your desires.


JMHO.

I certainly would not endeavor to call you wrong on your account of what this particular scripture has to say. I am no one to offer such a judgement. I would like to take a closer look at this, however. First, it would seem to me that you are indicating a ban on public prayer as a commandment of Jesus. In reading the verses you list, it certainly sounds that way. I want to look at this again momentarily. Secondly, if such an edict is valid, it should stand to reason that public prayer by Jesus and his followers is not present in their practices. Basing the discussion on these two points, what do we find in the rest of the Gospel and New Testament that would validate or refute these points? Regarding only the idea of public prayer, if Jesus did mean that it was off limits, many of his followers throughout the New Testament did not pay heed to his commands, nor did he himself. We know that the model for church worship is laid out for us in the New Testament. Part of this format for worship involves the gathered people praying to God. Likewise, we know that Jesus offered public prayer among He and His disciples at certain times throughout the Bible, such as at The Last Supper. Also, Jesus very publicly gave us the model prayer. These types of things found throughout the New Testament indicate the possibility that Jesus did not forbid public prayer, but rather a certain kind of public prayer.From the Bible, as well as other historical accounts of the Pharisees, we know that they would often pray publicly when others were watching, and that these prayers would be quiet filled with loud, boisterous claims of the good the Pharisee had done. Indeed, their prayers were filled with histrionics. It is possible that these such public prayers are the ones Jesus intends to have abolished from practice. I do not profess to know the answer to the questions I am asking. I only look at what I see before me and am left with conclusions that seem to be counter to what you are suggesting.

Why is it that the separation of church and state crowd has issues with public prayer, but apparently has no problem with cops setting up speed traps in church parking lots? :dunno: :confused:

Amen!  :dance:

For my part, I have no idea what you're referring to. I would assume (perhaps incorrectly) that if a police officer wants to set up a speed trap on private property they would need the permission of the owner, whether that was a private business, an individual, or a church. Are churches treated differently than businesses and individuals in this regard?

It was a joke.  In fact, just forget I posted it.  I've already broken my cardinal rule not to post on this board (thanks to the link from the main board), so I don't even want to get involved here. :inughout:

Ah. Sorry 'bout that. That's a pretty good cardinal rule, BTW. :nod:

When I read the first post in the string, which was completely innocent, I was sure this was going to deteriorate into some awful left/right debate over religion, instead, I got to read a reasoned debate.

I just wanted to say to all who have posted here on this subject, thank you.  Every one of you posted a reasoned, rational response (perhaps the humorous ones notwithstanding), didn't get heated, were tolerant of others viewpoints that were different from your own, and in short, made very good points.

I don't think I know any of you, but you all are to be congratulated for this because unfortunately it is not a very common occurrence these days, especially on the net, as I am sure those of you with facebook accounts can attest to with respect to the upcoming elections.

Here's to a return of rational discussion of sensitive points in this country.

Good job!