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I remember a thread about lawn/grass a while back. I was living in Florida when it came about, so I didn't set myself to retain it. Now that I'm living in Tennessee, my lawn is being overran by fescue and I want to smash it before it gets too bad.

Any one have the solution? I'm afraid that there isn't a selective herbicide that I can treat it with since it's not a broad leaf. Do I have to kill the whole lawn and start from scratch?

Astro turf....easy fix....stays green year round!

Overrun by fescue? You're not trying to grow bermuda are you????

Around here our fescue gets overrun by Bermuda, not the other way around.

What he said.

Don't listen to these guys. There's nothing wrong with a nice Bermuda lawn.  :dance:

I don't mind the bermuda lawn, I was just agreeing it will over run the fescue or anything else unless you stay on top of it.

When it gets hot... fertilize the hell out of your bermuda lawn.  And water...  The Fescue will wilt and the bermuda will take off like a scalded cat...  I built a Bermuda football field out of East Tennessee Tennessee clay at my wife's school when she was teaching.  I alternated a 35-0-0 with a 19-19-19 every other week.  The Bermuda came out fantastic.  You will mow constantly, but the Bermuda will look great.

In January - March, take out some Round-Up and spray anything that is green.  It won't hurt the dormant Bermuda and will kill off the competition when it gets warm again.

I'll follow up FLVOL's question with one of my own. I just moved to the proverbial goat ranch. Weeds are the dominant thing that grows. Should I kill everything now, or wait until winter and then seed in spring?

Also, the front yard faces west and gets lots of afternoon sun, but the back is pretty shady. Presumably the soil north is Charlotte is fairly similar to that of East Tennessee.

Fesue or Bermuda?

Fescue is preferable, but I don't like to babysit it.

Fescue should be seeded in mid-september.  It's really the only time to do it right.  This gives the roots time to develop before going dormant and also gives it the spring to develop better root structure.  If you seed in the Spring, you won't see much survice through the summer becasue the roots don't have enough time to develop.

In early February, hit it hard with a pre-emergent to prevent crab grass.  I use Scott's Halts.  In March, follow-up with another treatment of that.

I'm going to kill mine in late July/early August and seed this fall. Despite my earlier comment, I'm going with fescue this time.

I've always been one to buck sound advice, but my opinion has always been that the time of year when the seed is planted doesn't make a great deal of difference so long as you're diligent with your watering chores. In fact, my brother redid his lawn last year in the heat of summer. He went out in late June, tilled it up and planted a ryegrass/fescue mix. I told him he was nuts, but he stayed on top of the watering and his lawn was beginning to thrive by the time winter dormancy set in. Now, one year later, it looks like it has been a mature lawn for years.

Thanks a ton for the advice. The only other question I have is if Roundup is the to kill existing growth in BOM's timeframe (late summer), or should I go with something else?

Get 3 Labrador retrievers, add a mole and you won't have to worry about having a yard.

Nope, he is dead-on.  Use round-up no early then 3 weeks before you plan to spead your Fescue seed

murf and FL, you've been given good advice by 10EC and BOM.

FL: Fertilizing in the summer is a great way to kill fescue and give bermuda the edge. It's also the #1 way Scotts/Trugreen and other squirt & fert companies kill the lawns that people pay them to maintain. But I will ask nicely that you rethink this, as bermuda is the Devil's Weed.

murf: You will want to start killing in early August. Spray the whole thing with glyphosate (doesn't have to be roundup . . . any generic glyphosate will do, but it's best if you mix it with a nonionic surfactant so it sticks to the leaves). Two weeks later, spray anything that's still green. Repeat again two weeks later. If you have any bermuda, which you probably do, you may even want to start earlier and repeat this 4 or 5 times before you seed.

In early-to-mid September, when it's time to seed, mow very short (as low as your mower will go without the blade hitting the ground) and bag all the dead stuff. Leave the rest unless you want to use a plastic rake to collect any loose dead stuff your mower missed. DO NOT TILL!!!!! Tilling will only cause uneven spots, ruin your soil structure, and bring weeds to the top. Drop the seed straight into the dead turf, and if possible, top the seed with a very thin layer of compost (bagged stuff from the big blue or big orange box stores is fine). That'll retain moisture and is far better than straw, so watering twice a day will keep the seeds wet enough to get good germination. With fescue you can see germination in as little as 5 days if you seed and water properly.

BOM, I will differ with you here:


Watering is the main thing, so I'd say under the right conditions it's possible to have successful seeding in spring or summer . . . but it will take a lot more water to do it then, and you're asking for trouble in two other ways:

(1) Fescue simply doesn't grow well when soil temperatures are Tennessee-summer-hot. So your grass will germinate but won't grow that much until September brings cooler weather. It will not give you as much of a head start over September seeding as you'd think unless the summer is really mild.

(2) Young grass will be far more susceptible to hot weather diseases like rust and brown patch, especially with all of the extra moisture you'll have to introduce via watering. Grass that has seen several good months of growth is more likely to resist such problems.

Let me also add, for both of you, the following link:

http://bestlawn.info/forum.html (http://bestlawn.info/forum.html)

murf, you will want to check out the Cool-season Grasses and Lawn Renovations forums. FL will want to check out the Warm-season Grasses forum if he wants bermuda. On that forum you will find the most helpful, smartest, and most curious lawn nuts on the web. They're up on the latest research and have done experiments with many types of seed, herbicides, and fertilizers to learn from experience. It's where I learned much of what I know about lawncare, and where so many common myths (like tilling) are dispelled with ruthless efficiency. If you have the time or inclination, you should register and start a thread there for your questions.

Agree with not tilling, but I am a HUGE advocate of core aeriation twice a year.  Especially in early January so water can get into the holes then freeze and bust up the soil.

Not I. Only in the most extreme circumstances of physical compaction (say, heavy equipment on the lawn) do I think core aeration is necessary. Its benefits are outweighed by its annoying tendency to bring weed seeds to the surface in most other circumstances. I think aeration, like summer fertilization, has been sold as beneficial by people who stand to profit from its regular use. But you're not the only one I know who swears by it, so opinions do differ.

I prefer to improve the soil by introducing organic matter and encouraging soil microbes and critters like earthworms, all of which help water and air penetration in the soil. Synthetic fertilizers don't help with that, but feeding with organics does. Soybean meal, alfalfa, and milorganite are my fertilizers of choice, and the soil loves them (and then the grass loves the soil). My organic program in this yard is in its infancy, so I'm expecting to see a lot of improvement in my soil as the seasons go by.

That's exactly the information I needed. Thanks a ton Clock, 10EC and BOM. While Lyn makes a strong case for low maintenace I think I'll try something else first.

I'm not going to disagree with you because you know far more about it than I do. And I'm not really offering advice; just making statements because I like to talk.  :biggrin: But I just tend to go with whatever has proven to work for me in the past. Last year I planted some deer plots in ryegrass in early August, which is about five weeks earlier than the experts suggest. It flourished, which was good for my purposes because it allowed a few extra weeks of growth before cold weather set in...and I was planting it for deer consumption in December-January anyway. We did have an abnormally wet stretch of weather last August-September, which helped, but if that had been my lawn I could've controlled that part of it anyway. I will say that I have the advantage of living on the northern Cumberland Plateau, which is typically 5-7 degrees cooler than Knoxville, and I'm sure that helps.

lay down concrete and paint it green

My experience indicates that even that lawn will be overtaken by bermuda eventually.

I'm a little contrary on seeding timing too . . . I prefer late August to September. By the time the grass has emerged, the weather is starting to cooperate and growth can really kick in. That buys you several extra weeks of maturity before winter. You do have to water more when you seed that early but I think the grass ultimately benefits. When I did my lawn renovation last year it was September 10; I wanted to start two weeks earlier but I had to give the bermuda a 5th dose of roundup and that set me behind. I still don't think I killed all of the bermuda.

It all depends on the soil.  By definition, most of TN clay is compact.  If it's loam then I agree.

Well, if your lawn is mostly clay and you don't try to improve it, then you're in a never ending cycle and I can see why it might seem like twice a year aeration is necessary. The only thing that's really going to help the tilth of clay soil long term is organic matter and the natural soil structure that only microbial activity can create.

In Knoxville, I don't think we actually have clay, although just about every homeowner I know claims that we do. This close to several rivers, we likely have silty loam, and maybe a little clay. It's just that decades of poor soil treatment by farmers and homeowners alike has left it with little organic matter and few nutrients. I'm not a soil scientist, so I'm just going by what I've read.

I have Centipede and my neighbor two houses down has Bermuda. My Centipede has run through weeds, Fescue, Zoysia and concrete. But I'm seeing signs of an outbreak of Bermuda. I didn't think anything could defeat the Centipede.

I'm thinking you don't live on a hill...  My lot was scraped off the top of one.  You could take a knife and carve out chunks of my former yard.

One thing I do like about the areation is that if you do it right before over-seeding (not a new yard), it guarantees a much higher rate of soil/seed contact.  I agree with you though that ammendents are the best way to go, but for a big yard, that gets pricey. 

It is the cockroach of the plant world, and would simply bask in the warmth of a nuclear explosion. It would be the primary benefactor of the Dr. Strangelove "Doomsday Device," which would kill all other vegetation. If we were to live in a system of caverns to outlast the fallout, it would be just a matter of weeks before our underground greenhouses would be infested by bermuda. It would crawl its way through 300 feet of solid fizzleing rock to get there, if it had to.

If there is a hell; and if, as some say, it is a place of personal torment; and if, as I've been accused, I am doomed to end up there; my personal hell will be being isolated to a bermuda lawn. It'll always be 90 degrees, and I'll always be trying to keep it out of my flowerbeds: a sisyphean task from which I could never escape.

I don't much like bermuda.

Now I could definitely see how you could have more clay than most Tennesseans; it sounds like you are trying to grow a lawn on what used to be subsoil! What a difficult task.

Amendments are the only long-term solution, but I agree they are very pricey. I have the pleasure of a 1500 sq ft front lawn that I can baby without breaking the bank (the back is the dogs' realm, so I do very little besides mow). What I do is not practical if you have 15,000 sq ft of grass, unless you have a lot of time, a lot of money, or both.

spray it down with bleach and rat poison, burn in some napalm

Yeah, and then what do I do when that only makes it angry?

I laughed... so true.... 

carpet bombing? nukes?

Regarding clay dirt:

I know most people don't like the idea of a ryegrass lawn, but I've discovered that it will grow very well on poor soils, such as clay. I agree with Clocky that most people in TN don't have nearly as much clay as they think they have. But on our hunting lease, we have a lot of clay in areas that were logged 15 years ago and had all the topsoil bulldozed to the side. A decade and a half later, nothing grows in those spots except some scraggly yellow pines and briars here and there. We plant them in ryegrass (because it's cheap and easy to grow and the deer like to eat it just about as well as any cool season grass). We apply lime in advance at a rate of 2 tons per acre, fertilize with triple 13 at the time of planting at a rate of 150 lbs. per acre and then fertilize the same amount a few weeks after germination. Last fall, I had a plot of ryegrass on nothing but pure clay that had seemed almost useless that looked prettier than my lawn has ever looked. I had to resist the urge to haul my Husqvarna lawn tractor up on the mountain and mow it, it looked so nice and green.  :biggrin:

This was taken Oct. 14 last fall on a small, 1/2-acre plot. Two months earlier, this was nothing but dirt and a few weeds, and had been for more than a decade:

(http://www.bengarrett.net/images/050112ryegrass.jpg)

Beautiful! As some of that grass dies and rots (with seeds dropping to take its place), and as those leaves fall and rot . . . over time that soil is going to develop some organic matter content and structure and you are going to have turned it around. Bigger native trees will start germinating and being able to survive, and nature will finally take that artificial meadow back. By doing some seeding, even with a non-native grass, you have kick started that area into undoing the changes the loggers made.  :thumbup:

Yep, that is the plan. It will take a few years but the plants will add nutrients to the soil that will change its makeup. I hope we're able to hold onto the lease and see the results.

Sorry for the slow reply

I meant that bermuda has infested my yard and it looks like crap, not the other way around.  Thanks for all the good advice, and it looks like Im going to start on my yard late this summer. One last question; is there a major difference between fescue and kentucky blue grass? preference?

I'd love to grow KBG but it would be a major challenge just about anywhere in TN. You might be able to get away with it up in the Tri Cities area, but TN is just too damn hot in the summer for KBG to thrive. It would take even more water and more fertilizer than tall fescue, and even then it may not make it. It'd be extremely high maintenance. If I were you I would stick with fescue.

With that said, I'm thinking of overseeding with some KBG this fall. I am willing to baby it a little in my small front yard, and if it's healthy it will spread and fill in gaps (fescue will not). It might give the bermuda some competition in that regard . . . or it may just die a crispy summer death next year.

expensive. I have a Landscaping business and 90% of the new lawns we do are Zozysia.