Butch Jones and Kevin Sumlin chime in on proposed new rule

[Tnphil]

http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/2014/butch-jones-kevin-sumlin-ncaa-rule/

[Black Diamond Vol]

Well, you can't question Saban's concern for player safety.  I mean, look at all those medical hardships he's handed out over the years.

[BanditVol]

Yeah, if it's about player safety, why allow it for the last two minutes of the half?   

Saban can't even lie all that well.....

He's really tarnishing his legacy.  "Oh...wahhhhh!   I can't compete with the hurry up.  Wahhh!  Mark please change the rule for me".


That and hiring Lane Kiffin....he's really starting to lose it.   


This ridiculous rule change is likely to be terminated with extreme prejudice, IMO. 

[BGHarper]

I'm a fan great defensive play, and have been since day 1. If you like 56-48 type of games, then so be it. I like hard hitting, and tackles that knock the socks off offensive players. So did Bryant, so did Neyland.

Here's a post from another Bama fan on one of the Tide sites. It says it all!

BG



In light of recent struggles in baseball, auburn announced today that it's staff will be instructed to quick pitch on every throw to every batter. "We believe pitching to hitters who are not set, hopefully not even fully in the box, will give our inferior team an opportunity to become more competitive," Jay Jacobs said.

He also said basketball changes were coming, to include grabbing the ball from the official after each dead ball and attempting to in-bound before the defense can get set.

The swimming team is also getting involved, making the commitment to jump in the pool before the gun on every event. "We believe that 15-20 meter head start will allow us to train less often and use slower, less-athletic swimmers yet still win most meets," Jacobs noted.

He went on to say auburn was researching possible advantages for their equestrian program, but thus far the horses have declined to participate based on moral and ethical objections.

[Black Diamond Vol]

I'm a fan great defensive play, and have been since day 1. If you like 56-48 type of games, then so be it. I like hard hitting, and tackles that knock the socks off offensive players. So did Bryant, so did Neyland.

Here's a post from another Bama fan on one of the Tide sites. It says it all!

BG



In light of recent struggles in baseball, auburn announced today that it's staff will be instructed to quick pitch on every throw to every batter. "We believe pitching to hitters who are not set, hopefully not even fully in the box, will give our inferior team an opportunity to become more competitive," Jay Jacobs said.

He also said basketball changes were coming, to include grabbing the ball from the official after each dead ball and attempting to in-bound before the defense can get set.

The swimming team is also getting involved, making the commitment to jump in the pool before the gun on every event. "We believe that 15-20 meter head start will allow us to train less often and use slower, less-athletic swimmers yet still win most meets," Jacobs noted.

He went on to say auburn was researching possible advantages for their equestrian program, but thus far the horses have declined to participate based on moral and ethical objections.

I know that's supposed to be parody, but those are apples/oranges comparisons, and you know it. 

Hey, I don't like these gimmicky offenses either.  But if a coach has a problem with them, he needs to come up with a defensive scheme to stop them, rather than trying to bend the rules in his favor. 

[Creek Walker]

I like defensive football. I'm not a fan of 56-48 games. But to change the rules to prevent that from happening and to force everyone to play the same old school type of football as you do is ignorant and incredibly asinine. I lose a lot of respect for Saban trying to throw his weight around on this issue. He should go piss up a rope.

I hate the spread offense as a general rule. I'm waiting for a rule proposal forcing teams to have six down linemen and one set back besides the QB.

[BGHarper]

I know that's supposed to be parody, but those are apples/oranges comparisons, and you know it.  

Hey, I don't like these gimmicky offenses either.  But if a coach has a problem with them, he needs to come up with a defensive scheme to stop them, rather than trying to bend the rules in his favor.  

Nick Saban did not initiate this. Someone from the committee wanted his input, he didn't volunteer it. They asked him to write his opinions-he did. They later called him while he was at Lake Burton, and requested he come and give his thoughts before the committee. He rejected this until another member of the committee requested his appearance.

As far as coming up with a defensive scheme, the Tide was lacking badly at corner, and as far as having a decent pass rush. While another scheme may be beneficial, the type players he recruited at corner (2 5*) and  pass rushers (3 five stars per 247) will go along way. He's going more after the puss rushing DE with quickness (Da'Shaun Hand) than those with size. He's already adapting in his recruiting.

As far my argument that the game wasn't intended to be played with the offense snapping the ball before the defense could either substitute or even set-up. I have no doubt the that was not the intention for the game. I admit I'm old fashion as far as thinking the defense should have the time to set-up, but I honestly like low scoring games with hard hitting, and the HUNH will change all of this. This is the SEC, not the Mountain West.

BG

[Creek Walker]

I have no doubt the that was not the intention for the game. I admit I'm old fashion as far as thinking the defense should have the time to set-up, but I honestly like low scoring games with hard hitting, and the HUNH will change all of this. This is the SEC, not the Mountain West.

BG

I like games after dark in September and October, and games in the "heat" of day in November. Please let me know when we can implement rules requiring this.

[Black Diamond Vol]

I'm not buying that.  You're telling me that the committee would "request" Saban and Bielema to testify, but not give equal time to coaches with opposing points of view? 

[BGHarper]

I like games after dark in September and October, and games in the "heat" of day in November. Please let me know when we can implement rules requiring this.

Not the same thing at all. Do you really think there should be no rule changes when defences don't even have to to set up or even substitute? Do really think this doesn't take away from the integrity of the game, which the defense was always allowed to do in the past? That analogy of throwing the baseball before the batter sets up in the box is not so far off at all.

BG

[BGHarper]

I'm not buying that.  You're telling me that the committee would "request" Saban and Bielema to testify, but not give equal time to coaches with opposing points of view? 

That's exactly what happened whether you buy it or not. That is also why the opposing coaches were upset, and probably rightfully so.


BG

[Black Diamond Vol]

Not the same thing at all. Do you really think there should be no rule changes when defences don't even have to to set up or even substitute? Do really think this doesn't take away from the integrity of the game, which the defense was always allowed to do in the past? That analogy of throwing the baseball before the batter sets up in the box is not so far off at all.

BG

But they ARE allowed to substitute, whenever the offense does.  So assuming the defense takes advantage, neither unit should be any more fatigued than the other.

[Black Diamond Vol]

That's exactly what happened whether you buy it or not. That is also why the opposing coaches were upset, and probably rightfully so.


BG

If that's true, then it just confirms what a lot of people across the country have long suspected- that Saban gets special treatment from the NCAA, and his BFF Mark Emmert.  And it's public record that Saban was lobbying for this early in the season last year.  So even if he didn't "write" this legislation, he certainly had a huge influence in it reaching this point.

[Creek Walker]

Not the same thing at all. Do you really think there should be no rule changes when defences don't even have to to set up or even substitute? Do really think this doesn't take away from the integrity of the game, which the defense was always allowed to do in the past?

Nothing has changed between what the defense was allowed to do in the past and what they are allowed to do now. The defense has always been at the offense's mercy. Tell your butthurt coach to adapt with the game or go back to the NFL.

[Creek Walker]

If that's true, then it just confirms what a lot of people across the country have long suspected- that Saban gets special treatment from the NCAA, and his BFF Mark Emmert.  And it's public record that Saban was lobbying for this early in the season last year.  So even if he didn't "write" this legislation, he certainly had a huge influence in it reaching this point.

Exactly. Saban wanted it, he was on record as wanting it, and now his buddies are trying to make it happen.

[BGHarper]

If that's true, then it just confirms what a lot of people across the country have long suspected- that Saban gets special treatment from the NCAA, and his BFF Mark Emmert.  And it's public record that Saban was lobbying for this early in the season last year.  So even if he didn't "write" this legislation, he certainly had a huge influence in it reaching this point.

Good, I hope he did have an influence.

Here's what one local writer wrote today: For the moment, let's assume that all the worst-case scenarios are true, that Saban was deviously seeking an advantage for his team against other teams. I carefully researched Saban's job description in preparing this column, and guess what? That is precisely what he is supposed to do. In fairness, at least one coach on the other side of the issue - Arizona's Rich Rodriguez - acknowledged as much as he made the rounds on the national radio shows on Friday, noting that he had "no problem" with Saban making his point. Others have been less forgiving, including some who had no problem changing the recruiting rules when they thought Saban had an advantage because he and his staff worked too hard.

The next step in that criticism is that Saban got a chance to present his side of the argument to the NCAA committee and the hurry-up, no-huddle coaches were caught unawares.

Really? The HUNH coaches weren't ready when Saban was? They needed him to wait until they were ready? The irony is delicious."




BTW, the NCAA meets again, and this issue will no doubt come up again. I understand you guys don't like Saban, but I assure you the integrity of the game is what is in question with defenses now not having time to even set-up. Great hard hitting defensive games, that has always been the hallmark for both Tennessee and Alabama, may not be the same again.


BG

[Creek Walker]

BTW, the NCAA meets again, and this issue will no doubt come up again. I understand you guys don't like Saban, but I assure you the integrity of the game is what is in question with defenses now not having time to even set-up. Great hard hitting defensive games, that has always been the hallmark for both Tennessee and Alabama, may not be the same again.


BG

Actually I've always respected and admired Saban and probably been his biggest defender among the entire UT fan base. But this issue makes him seem like a two-bit hypocrite because we all know it has NOTHING to do with the "integrity of the game." It's all about a guy who's an old-school coach and has been very successful with old-school methods realizing the game is about to pass him by and, rather than change and adapt with it, decides to try and use his influence to force the game to mold to him. It's about a coach who considers himself bigger than the game.

Nothing wrong with using your legacy to your advantage; Neyland was able to do it to prevent two-platoon football until after his death. But that didn't make Neyland right on that issue and, personally, I hope his coaching peers collectively tell Saban where to go stick it.

[BGHarper]

Actually I've always respected and admired Saban and probably been his biggest defender among the entire UT fan base. But this issue makes him seem like a two-bit hypocrite because we all know it has NOTHING to do with the "integrity of the game." It's all about a guy who's an old-school coach and has been very successful with old-school methods realizing the game is about to pass him by and, rather than change and adapt with it, decides to try and use his influence to force the game to mold to him. It's about a coach who considers himself bigger than the game.

Nothing wrong with using your legacy to your advantage; Neyland was able to do it to prevent two-platoon football until after his death. But that didn't make Neyland right on that issue and, personally, I hope his coaching peers collectively tell Saban where to go stick it.

"It's all about a guy who's an old-school coach and has been very successful with old-school methods realizing the game is about to pass him by and, rather than change and adapt with it, decides to try and use his influence to force the game to mold to him."..................and there's  nothing wrong with that.




While I'm of course in favor for what's in Alabama's best interest, I'm telling you I really like the defensive game, and what we've known in this conference, at least to a certain extent, is now in jeopardy. While I know mostTennessee fans will always pull against what an Alabama coach is advocating, this issue affects to the core of what Tennessee Volunteer football has always been about. If I grew up watching Jackie Walker, Hacksaw Reynolds and Steve Kiner (which I did) if I were a UT fan, I surely know which side of this issue I would be for.


BG

[Creek Walker]

"It's all about a guy who's an old-school coach and has been very successful with old-school methods realizing the game is about to pass him by and, rather than change and adapt with it, decides to try and use his influence to force the game to mold to him."..................and there's  nothing wrong with that.




While I'm of course in favor for what's in Alabama's best interest, I'm telling you I really like the defensive game, and what we've known in this conference, at least to a certain extent, is now in jeopardy. While I know mostTennessee fans will always pull against what an Alabama coach is advocating, this issue affects to the core of what Tennessee Volunteer football has always been about. If I grew up watching Jackie Walker, Hacksaw Reynolds and Steve Kiner (which I did) if I were a UT fan, I surely know which side of this issue I would be for.


BG

LOL. You accuse everyone else of being against it because Saban is for it, but don't have the fortitude to say that you're for it because Saban is for it?

[BGHarper]

LOL. You accuse everyone else of being against it because Saban is for it, but don't have the fortitude to say that you're for it because Saban is for it?

I've enjoyed the debate. Hope we can do these types of threads much more often. After this, I'm off to bed so maybe we can continue tomorrow if you guys want. You must not have read my other post when I said I was clearly in favor of what benefits Alabama; of course I am. I then went on to explain, that while that's true, I'm also a purist when it comes to this game, and I want defenses to have the time to set up as they always have. I don't want defense as we've known it for years to no longer exit. See my above post for reference.

Also, I never responded to the assertion that nothing has really changed, and defenses have time to substitute as usual. While the refs did make a better effort to make sure defenses had time to substitute when offenses brought on new personal to the field, there was little time to set up on defense if there were no substitutions made by the offense. While defenses are running to get in place, the ref can still put the ball down for in-play, and immediately the offense can snap it while the defense is still setting up. It's ruining the game we knew, and I promise you that is the football fan in me talking, not just the Crimson Tide fan. I didn't grow up waiting anxiously to watch a WAC game with a 52-48 score, with not one single tackle worth noting. I grew up waiting for lb's such as Leroy Jordan or Steve Kiner to lay someone out in a tough in the trenches, lay it all on the line, SEC game.



BG

[Creek Walker]

If anything is threatening the 'integrity' of football, it's one coach trying to throw his weight around and force the game to mold to him. Saban's fear of Gus Malzahn is almost laughable.

[Clockwork Orange]

If anything is threatening the 'integrity' of football, it's one coach trying to throw his weight around and force the game to mold to him. Saban's fear of Gus Malzahn is almost laughable.

This. Saban's butthurt is the only injury evidence we've seen to this point. That the NCAA is consulting with him on this question, no matter who initiated that contact, is embarrassing for them. They could write the book on how to lose credibility.

[EmerilVOL]

Good, I hope he did have an influence.

Here's what one local writer wrote today: For the moment, let's assume that all the worst-case scenarios are true, that Saban was deviously seeking an advantage for his team against other teams. I carefully researched Saban's job description in preparing this column, and guess what? That is precisely what he is supposed to do. In fairness, at least one coach on the other side of the issue - Arizona's Rich Rodriguez - acknowledged as much as he made the rounds on the national radio shows on Friday, noting that he had "no problem" with Saban making his point. Others have been less forgiving, including some who had no problem changing the recruiting rules when they thought Saban had an advantage because he and his staff worked too hard.

The next step in that criticism is that Saban got a chance to present his side of the argument to the NCAA committee and the hurry-up, no-huddle coaches were caught unawares.

Really? The HUNH coaches weren't ready when Saban was? They needed him to wait until they were ready? The irony is delicious."




BTW, the NCAA meets again, and this issue will no doubt come up again. I understand you guys don't like Saban, but I assure you the integrity of the game is what is in question with defenses now not having time to even set-up. Great hard hitting defensive games, that has always been the hallmark for both Tennessee and Alabama, may not be the same again.


BG

BG Sorry man this does not pass the sniff test as a good rule.  First of all if there was a patient safety issue at the core of this arguement then why did they not also include it in the final two minutes of a half as part of the rule change.  Secondly, while most offenses do not snap the ball within the first ten seconds of the 40 second clock, (the average is 17 seconds for most hurry up offenses) the way the propposed rule change is worded is that the offense must give the defense a chance to change personnel.  THIS IS TOTAL BULLSHIZZLE.  If Satan can't think fast enough to get his defensive players on the field as soon as the previous play is over -- too damn bad.

I love defensive football, but I also like the hurry up offenses adding a new dimension to the game.  Saban and Beilema are "Old School" coaches.  Beilema is Big Ten Three Yards and a Cloud of Dust coach.  Saban is bascially in that same mold since he came from the Big Ten (Michigan State) and what is in the DNA is in the DNA.  Yeah ole Sabanator recruited more for speed, his comments after the Auburn game revealed his true feelings when he said "we got outquicked the entire game" and admitted he had to change his approach.

 

[TheRealOrange]

Not the same thing at all.

Yes, it is.

Do you really think there should be no rule changes when defences I don't even have to to set up or even substitute?

Yes, I believe there should be no rule change.

Do really think this doesn't take away from the integrity of the game, which the defense was always allowed to do in the past?

What rule changed what defenses were allowed to do in the past?  None that I know of.  The "integrity of the game" argument is just plain silly.  As long as the existing rules are being followed, the "integrity of the game" remains intact.  Changing the rules because you can't figure out how to stop an offense (or move on a defense) definitely takes away from the integrity of the game.

That analogy of throwing the baseball before the batter sets up in the box is not so far off at all.

It's not only far off, it's completely wrong.  It's more like an umpire not giving a batter extra time and the pitch being thrown as soon as the batter is in the box, which I think is just fine.

If a coach doesn't like the hurry up offense, Then FIND A WAY TO STOP IT!  If a coach likes defensive football, then DESIGN ONE THAT WORKS!  Don't beg for a rule change because you're not doing your job, especially in the totally unsupported guise of safety.  I have no idea what Saban or any other coaches want, but the proposed rule change is just plain stupid.   

[PirateVOL]

Yes, it is.

Yes, I believe there should be no rule change.

What rule changed what defenses were allowed to do in the past?  None that I know of.  The "integrity of the game" argument is just plain silly.  As long as the existing rules are being followed, the "integrity of the game" remains intact.  Changing the rules because you can't figure out how to stop an offense (or move on a defense) definitely takes away from the integrity of the game.

It's not only far off, it's completely wrong.  It's more like an umpire not giving a batter extra time and the pitch being thrown as soon as the batter is in the box, which I think is just fine.

If a coach doesn't like the hurry up offense, Then FIND A WAY TO STOP IT!  If a coach likes defensive football, then DESIGN ONE THAT WORKS!  Don't beg for a rule change because you're not doing your job, especially in the totally unsupported guise of safety.  I have no idea what Saban or any other coaches want, but the proposed rule change is just plain stupid.   

I like they way you think on this issue, you should be a lawyer ...