VTTW Board Index

What was the question?

what was the dream?

Who is the Vols fans' latest unrealistic head coaching prospect?  :dance:  I'd like to think that someone like Gruden would come to Knoxville, but I have a hard time seeing it.  Perhaps times have changed enough, but look at history: Dooley, Kiffin, Fulmer, Majors, Battle, Dickey, McDonald, Wyatt, Robinson, Neyland.........  Coach Majors is the biggest name head coach to come to the Vols from another school/team, IMO, although Bowden Wyatt came "home" too after head coaching elsewhere.  Then there was Kiffin.  The others except for Dooley, I believe, were assistants when they were hired, including the two most successful the Vols have ever had -- Neyland and Fulmer.  Perhaps Hart will turn things on their head and get a non-Vol big name as head coach.  Then again, I am not adverse to hiring a really good assistant or smaller school head coach.  Remember, Dooley was not very successful as a head coach at La Tech, and that's why he was such a shock when he was named as head coach (at least to me).

Can't wait to see these boards if it were to happen.   :loco:

You guys do know that it is a fact he's interested, right?  Not saying it will happen, but to dismiss it as a dream or fantasy is incorrect.

Vinnie is it fact or more internet hearsay... That he is interested?

I agree with Vinnie.  For some reason UT fans have this huge inferiority complex and just assume that we can never get anybody that is better than what we have , no matter how bad the status quo is.  Fact is, we have never opened up the check book for anybody, not ever.  Why is it that a small University in a small southern state like Alabama can pay out the butt for a coach but we can't?  

Believe it or not, there are credible people on the internet.  They're not all clueless guessers, like us.   :smile:

Lol. Ok :wink: I'm all for it!  Hoping mama Gruden is ready to come back home! :biggrin:

Hiring Gruden may happen. Just knowing the facts that he makes $4.5-$5.0 million with ESPN, UT has never paid a coach above $3 million, and it will take $6-10 million to buy out our current staff leaves me with pause.

I don't really see it as an inferiority complex.  I just think that UT is a unique program and I believe that not many coaches would see it as a job that will ever lead to anything else.  That is, it seems to me that UT's best bet is to find someone who already likes Knoxville, or likely will fall in love, and wants to stay there for good (not jump to a "dream" job like Kiffin).  Sort of like a Pearl for football, but someone who won't mess up.  :wink:  The UTAD could offer more money and still lose someone not married to the area.  And, as much as I hate to admit it, places like South Bend and Tusk O'Loser can draw coaches with program history much better than UT can.  Perhaps paying more than actual value is what it will take.  And, at least Gruden and his wife have lived in Knoxville and know (and perhaps like) the area already.  And, I think the Vols can get much better than what they have now regardless of whether that person has head coaching experience, and certainly not head coaching experience at a major university or the NFL.  I still do not know what Hamilton's attraction to Dooley was, absent acting in panic mode.  Who out there would see Tennessee as their "dream" job and would stay?  Is there somenone like that out there?  I don't know, but having a head coach with that mentality, as well as a solid coaching history, would sure be nice.  

I haven't read that he is interested, only that UT is interested in him and there may have been "unofficial" contact.  Then again, I do not read football-related internet sites.  Have credible sources reported that he actually has expressed interest (other than listening to potential offers)? 

I guess it depends on who you think is credible.  I know Ainge and Basilio have gone on record to say the he's interested.  Hubbs says we're going to make him say no.  Lowe says we're talking... Which leads me to believe there is mutual intetest there.  Actually, Lowe was one of the first big names to go on record with Gruden.

Cool.  I don't read anything by any of those guys.  :biggrin:  I have no doubt that Hart may be making a big push to get him.  If it's true that contact has been made and he is interested, then he'll probably be the next head coach.  If it's true that contact has been made and he is simply listening, then it's still a longshot at best IMO.  I just get the feeling that he would like the glitz and glamor of ESPN or the NFL more than coming back to Knoxville.

In my heart I have doubts it will happen.  But I want to believe.

Ainge even said there was interest in 2008, but that there were "roadblocks" that he wouldn't name.  He said those roadblocks are now gone.

When Notre Dame and Bama hired Saban and Kelly they were as down as down can be. Somebody please explain to me why South Bend Indiana and Tuscaloosa Al are more glamorous destinations than Knoxville TN?   Why does a coach have to be "in love with Knoxville" yet be willing to move to outposts like South Bend or Tuscaloosa? I lived in Tuscaloosa for 2 years. if there is a bigger crap hole in this neck of the woods, I would like to see it.

FIFY  :toothless:

  [/quote]  I still do not know what Hamilton's attraction to Dooley was, absent acting in panic mode.   [/quote]

Yes, you nailed it IMO.

On another note, I don't think Dooley is played yet, and I don't think know I'm not the only one.  It doesn't mean that I'm happy with his performance - far from it.  It does mean that, given the situation financially and allowing that we have shown considerable improvement from an almost impossible situation, I am perfectly willing to wait it out and trust Hart to make the right decision at the right time.  Rather than, as occured below, stating that "I want Dooley fired before he gets on the plane" (after a 3 point loss to a tough opponent on their home field  :rolleyes:)

If Hart makes a decision tomorrow (which I think is unlikely), or at the end of the season (possible), next season (more likely IMO) or even years down the road after Dooley wins next year's SECC (go ahead and laugh), I am going to be patient and see how it plays out.

We have been through not just two coaching changes, but a bad transition that left a bad taste (the shoddy way Fulmer was let go, the rebellion by the team over such, the contribution of that to Wyoming, etc) and a worse transition with a second horrible hire (mattresses were literally burnt, nuff said -and I mean both Kiffin AND Dooley were horrible hires). 

If and when there is a transition, let's do it right this time.

Dooley isn't paid for moral victories.  The "improvement" card is laughable at this point, and I knew that's what you'd say.  "We didn't get beat as bad at the away game I attended" is not a valid reason settle for mediocrity.  I feel bad that the current product on the field is good enough for you.  Obviously this year seems better because Bray is still playing. This is the worst defense in UT history.  Dooley has had plenty of opportunities to beat just ONE team of significance.  The "rightness" of this process will be determined by the level of success of Hart's new hire.  If Kiffin had us where we wanted to be by now, no one would care about how  it was handled.

And once again, money is not of any issue here.  It will cost UT more money if Dooley were to stay.  It doesn't really matter anyway, because Dooley is a goner.

For you to assume Hart will mishandle it just like Hamilton did is not wise, imo.

What I find humorous is that you guys think the original post was intended for anyone else except Lyn.

He probably is, and that proves that this is a very different time than when Johnny came marching home.  I think Dooley took over a program in much more disarray than Majors did, and with equally bad talent.  I also think the SEC is tougher from top to bottom now than it was then, and lower tier programs are certainly much better.  Johnny went 4-7, 5-5-1, 7-5, and 5-6 before finally winning 8 (8-4) in 1981 (got to 8 with a bowl win).  He then promptly went 6-5-1 in 1982 (although the win against bama saved him from too much criticism).  There is no way he could have survived with the demands put on head coaches today, but people put up with his mediocrity because he was a Tennessee favorite son.  I do not think Dooley has what it takes to be an SEC head coach, because it appears that the talent is there to beat some of the better SEC teams (UGA and USC).  I'm sorry, but if you score 44 and 35 respectively against those two teams, you should win.  This is the worst Vols defense I can rememeber, and the ultimate blame goes to Dooley. 

100% agree with you Vinnie! In what world is a 0 in the win column against ranked opponents any type pf improvement.   Dooley is costing us more money by the week than it ever will cost UT to get rid of him.  Last time i checked empty seats are not bringing in money!  Call me a dreamer but I have to believe in the Gruden hype.  I believe!!!!

This just isn't good enough.  And it's about time the powers that be act like it!  I've disagreed woth Basilio in the past, but I'm with him on this.

If we had the 60th best defense in the country we'd be in good (relatively speaking) shape. All Dooley had to do is get an average DC. The only question is if Hart made him hire Sunseri. If that's the case we have larger problems.

I'm going to piggyback on what Vinnie has said, because I agree with him on all points. There's mutual interest between UT and Gruden. I think it's unlikely to work out in the end, but it isn't the pipe dream some make it out to be. I was one of those who scoffed at the notion that Gruden would consider UT in the beginning, but I was wrong.

Also, I'm not sure why so many UT fans are convinced that this football program isn't a destination job. I've had more than a few UT fans give me a laundry list of reasons why Tennessee should keep Dooley, and it always comes back to their belief that UT cannot attract a better coach. I LOL'd at a beat writer from the Maryville newspaper who belittled UT fans for daring to believe that Tennessee can lure a top-notch coach to Knoxville. This mindset has only developed over the last four years, and directly from the need of our fans to justify Hamilton's weak hires. Suddenly some fans act as though UT's success began and ended with the '90s. Fulmer's success was great -- maybe unprecedented, all things considered. But Tennessee has been an elite program -- and by elite I mean one of the top five programs in America -- since Neyland arrived on the scene in the '20s. Has anything happened to change that? Certainly this isn't the job it was in the '90s because the college football landscape has changed. As the game evolved during the mid 20th Century Tennessee developed a disadvantage due to its homegrown prep talent. Because there were so few elite programs to choose from, Dickey and Majors and especially Fulmer were able to recruit very well in the South's talent hotbeds -- Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, etc. Today there are many more programs for those players to choose if they want a shot at winning championships and playing professionally, and many of them are closer to home than Tennessee. However, the rest of the intangibles have not changed: We have a huge fanbase with no pro franchise to compete for our attention (and $$), the facilities are among the best in the nation, academics are good enough to get by, we have football tradition and history that very few schools in this nation have, there are mega-donors with pockets deep enough to insure that the program has what it needs to succeed, and a board of trustees and university administration that is committed to winning. This is still one of the top 10 or 15 jobs in America.

It's true that Tennessee hasn't hired many "high profile" coaches over the years . . . but how much of that is due to the fact that Tennessee has traditionally preferred to hire from within the Vol family? Before Dooley and Kiffin, how many coaches has Tennessee had who weren't part of the family? Not many. Neyland certainly had a propensity for hiring from within the program and even though he didn't have to hire many coaches, so did Dickey.

I've also heard fans say that we're setting the bar too high, and firing Dooley after a 7-5 season is going to cause no coach to want to come here. To that I say, Kentucky, anyone? It might have been easy for UK to decide that they were no longer the program they were a decade and a half ago. Billy Clyde had more success at UK in basketball than Dooley has had at UT in football, and do we even need to talk about how UK forced out one of the most successful coaches of his era in Tubby Smith? Those high goals at UK certainly didn't drive away Calipari. It takes a big ego to be a coach. The opportunity to rebuild the program here is an attractive one. Attach the right kind of salary to it and it becomes hard to pass up.

No one is settling for mediocrity.  But a mediocre season can follow a BAD season, and lead to a GOOD or GREAT season.  So it may be necessary to TOLERATE a mediocre season to get to the GOOD season.  Does that help?   As for the product being good enough for me, it definitely is not.  It's just better than last year on offense.  A LOT better.  And if the offense improved so much year to year, why can't the D?


It's way more than Bray.  Our running game is averaging 60 more ypg, our OL is playing lights out (did you notice that Clowney didn't get a single sack yesterday?) and even the kicking game is better.  The OFFENSE is better, and not just due to Bray.  It is, in fact, a team game.

 
If not THE worst, then certainly top 5.   


Now see, I do disagree with this.  You do know that Kiffin just lost to Arizona and is likely to get punked by Oregon with legitimate MNC-level talent, AND his daddy coaching the D?  I realize that the Fulmer of 2002-2008 was a shell of his former self, but I question whether Kiffin at his BEST was even as good as Fulmer at his WORST.  I suppose you could compare 2009 to 2008 and say Kiffin was slightly better, but that's about it.  Speaking of mediocrity...was 7-6 in 2009 really worth getting rid of Fulmer?  I don't think it was!  So in fact, it WAS handled badly. In that, if you get rid of the second best coach in the history of the program (who is only slightly worse than the best) then you better make a better choice than Kiffin.   :nod:


I am making no such assumption.  In fact, so far I am very happy with how Hart is handling it.  My perception, right or wrong, though I can support it, is that Hamilton caved too easily to public opinion and panicked and made some bad decisions.   Hart, so far as I can tell, is doing his own thing and not going to be swayed much by an excess of whining.

Well said Creek, Kentucky is a good example.  Also, Bama.  Their finances were not in good shape pre Saban.  But as with Kentucky, the said "you know what.  We're special... We're above this."  And they hired accordingly.  All I can do is shake my head at the fact that somehow Dooley became the head coach for Tennessee.  It's an embarrassment, to me.  THIS guy is what Hamilton thought of this program.  Well, you get what you pay for.

And for people to compare this to the past two coaching searches, you just cannot compare the two.  Totally different AD, totally different situation.  Hammy had an agenda with Fulmer the whole time.

I'm convinced Hart gets it.  I think he's convinced the money people that it's time to stop screwing around, pinching pemnies, and do this right.  I know Gruden is option 1a, 1b, and 1c.  And while some still have reservations even about him, I just can't imagine a scenario where he's not successful here.

Once again, the editor got me.  But to finish, yeah..."money is not an issue".  Whose money?  Easy to say it's not an issue when it's someone else's money I suppose.  How much are you personally willing to donate to get rid of Dooley?  If a wealthy donor is worth $100 million, should he or she donate 9% of their net worth to pay the $9.3 million in buyouts?  Would you donate 9% of yours?  Dooley may well be a goner, but until it happens, he's not, and who knows when Hart will pull the trigger.

I think I have a good hunch how Hart is playing this, but that's all it is.  I am looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

Hart...cannot POSSIBLY...do worse than Hamilton.  :frown: (or I hope not)

History is meaningful.  I think UT can be a destination job, but not for every successful coach out there.  What is it about Tennessee that would draw a successful coach from another large university?  I still say there would have to be something about Knoxville and UT that would be attractive to a prospective coach on both a professional and personal level.


I think there are legitimate reasons to keep Dooley, but none of them have anything to do with UT not being able to attract a better coah.  Dooley had a medicore record at La. Tech, and has been poor at Tennessee.  He certainly has not set the bar very high.


Well, how long has it been since they did that?  Majors in 1977?


Well, of course it has.  The last hire was in 1992 and the one before that was 1977.  That's a Vols football lieftime to many fans, especially those likely to post on the internet.  I don't think it's to justify Hamilton's hires.  I think it's a reflection of what they have seen in the coaching searches in late 2008 and early 2010.  It sure seems like a lot of unofficial declinations of a lot of unofficial offers.  Very frustrating.


Yep.  We live in a "what have you done for me lately" college football world, and that, IMO, includes programs.


I would like to agree, but I just don't see it and would not have agreed even before Fulmer was fired.  That's why, even though I thought it was time for him to go, I warned at the time for fans to be careful what they asked for because I did not think that many successful coaches would be apt to leave their existing jobs for UT.  What would be the upside for them?  If it's just more money,....again, be careful what you ask for.


Well, Dickey hired only Fulmer, so....  :wink:  Bob Woodruff hired Dickey (not family), Battle (sort of family; assistant coach for three years, but never played at UT), and Majors (family).  The Majors and Fulmer eras span a huge chunk of time (over 30 years), which clearly has an effect on people's perception.  Anything before Woodruff is ancient coaching history, which makes me VERY old.  :biggrin:

Lol, what I can or can't contribute has nothing to do with it.  Obviously (at least, I thought it was obvious) what I meant was people whose money drives these kinds of decisions are willing to spend whatever it costs.  If you choose not to believe that, fine.  But reputable individuals who make a living covering the Vols say it's a fact.

So you think this year is only mediocre, not bad?  And by that reasoning Dooley deserves more time?  Vandy is the only other conference team that has started 0-5 in conference play for three consecutive seasons.  If you don't get it by now, you're never going to.
This is Tennessee.  That shizzle just ain't good enough.  Period.  We deserve better.  If Dooley had beat just ONE team he shouldn't have, this might be a different conversation.  But he hasn't.  Plus, he lost to Kentucky.  So, BYE DOOLS.

Just this morning, I was told that bammer had to only worry about Shula's buyout, and that it wasn't much.  Franchione left on his own while Price and Dubose were fired for cause, so no buyout.  And Shula's buyout wasn't that much.

Agree about Dooley.  Was shocked that we hired him.

Not pinching pennies is great, but the timing of when to do so can vary.  If Hart waits a certain further period of time, what of it?  Provided that the end result is the same.....

You and I certainly agree that Hart can't possibly screw up as bad as Hamilton did.

Well, I went back through the posts from January 2010 earlier today.  Kiffin left less than a month before the signing date and after most available coaches had already been hired.  It was hardly a "normal" head coaching search situation.  Dooley was not even on my radar screen, but most of the big names had already said they were staying put (or we got the dreaded, "I have not been in official contact" about the job -- meaning we talked but I turned them down for whatever reason).  Now, if the whatever reason was not enough money, then why?  Hamilton?  Boosters not stepping up?  Who the heck knows.  I also do not think you always get what you pay for in head coaching.  There are lots of unemployed head coaches out there who were paid huge sums for zero results, and a ton of assistants (usually coordinators) who are now extremely successful head coaches.  Dooley had no pedigree coming in.  At the very least, the next guy better.  Assuming, of course, that Dooley is gone.

Agree, and I don't agree at all that we "can't attract a good coach to UT".


Titans?

Our views are actually less divergent than you think.  I'm simply willing to wait till the end of the season, and possibly even till next season.  Don't worry, it stops there.  There was a concerted rush to throw Dooley under the bus after we lost to UK last year, and it carried over till this year.  That's what all the "9-3 or else", "all in on Florida", etc, was really all about.  The real decisions were made last year.  I know, because I saw them discussed in great detail on this board.   :laugh:   The gist of the conversations last year was "Dooley had until the end of 2012 and maybe into 2013, but this Kentucky loss blew that" and that led to "I am setting my expectations unrealistically high for 2012 knowing he will fail so I can bail on him".

I'm just sticking with the original plan, is all.  Good to the end of 2012, and possibly into 2013 if Hart so decides.  

My timeline was screwed up. For whatever reason I was thinking Dickey was already AD when Majors was hired. I was only off by 8 years or so . . .  :laugh:

That's true.  It was a mess.  I wouldn't even want to go back and look at the posts.   :laugh:

Well, I was alive for pre-Woodruff as AD, but since I lived in Philly then, I'm not counting it because it would REALLY make me feel old.   :wink:

The worst part, to me, was the fact that so many people wanted Dooley to succeed, not just for the program but because he seemed like a great guy.  It's a shame really that he couldn't put a great staff together quickly and win just a few of those close games.  Perhaps he could have grown into the job.  It doesn't seem likely given his results so far, but it would have been nice (or at least a lot nicer than what has happened). 

Now this, I cannot argue with.  If Dooley is retained (which may not be likely anyway), the D has to show massive improvement next year.  I think it could happen for a few reasons.

One, we can improve by simple inertia if nothing else.   :frown:    We are THAT bad.
Two, Sunseri might need a year to implement things and get his players in place.
Three, Dooley did greatly improve the offensive product from last year to this, including the O Line and run game, so why would our D not improve next year?

The 2010 coaching search was wild . . . first Muschamp was on the verge of coming, then Troy Calhoun was a done deal until he wasn't, then David Cutcliffe was a done deal until he wasn't. Throw in a few wild rumors about Lovie Smith being on the Haslams' private jet to Knoxville . . .

One thing I wonder, though, is just how many coaches DID turn us down? Hamilton was a master of deception. Honestly, when I read about the lengths Mitt Romney's campaign went to in order to secretively get Paul Ryan out of Wisconsin, I laughed and said that Hamilton must have spearheaded the effort. Hamilton was great at creating smoke screens and throwing the press off on the wrong angle. And it wasn't just the UT beat guys who were fooled by him. I spoke to a reporter in Colorado Springs at the time who told me that Calhoun was headed to a team meeting to inform his players that he was headed to Knoxville. So while I will always believe that Muschamp was truly Hamilton's No. 1 target, can any of us say with any certainty that Tennessee made anything more than a soft pitch at Muschamp? Or that they pursued Calhoun at all? Or any of the others?

I might say something but all I did was review MY posts from that timeframe ... :naughty:

The opposite questions could be asked too.  Can any of us say with any certainty that Tennessee did not make feverish pitches at the likes of Gruden and Cowher and Smith, etc.?  Or that they didn't pursue even more big names but got shot down early and often?  The timing was horrible for going after existing college coaches, so existing and former NFL coaches would have made more likely targets (or so it seems to me).  In this case it's not 20/20 hindsight; it's total lack of hindsight.   :wink:

Well you ask me about this season and then bring up our record over three seasons?  LOL.  Ignoring the part about "0-5 for the third consecutive season", I will say that yes, this season is mediocre.  So far.  It can still be as bad as last year, though I TRULY hope it is not.   :hurl:   If we close 5-0, then it's still our best season since 2007  :hurl:, and right now this program needs that whether Dooley is the coach next year or not.  Which brings me to your final point above...I am not really arguing that Dooley should be the coach or not next year.  It should be based on the entire body of work for the season.


I agree it's not good enough.  Just a bit more patient in getting it back to where it should be.  But not infinitely so, trust me.   I can wait until the end of the season to see how this all plays out, and depending on how it does, maybe even one more season, but that's it.

To me, a year's difference in a coaching change is not that big a deal, one way or the other.  If Dooley gets 3 or 4 years, meh, it's about the same to me.