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Being big on second amendment rights I still know something has to be done. I don't like the huge tax on ammo as an answer nor do I want abolition of all handguns as I don't want my fingers broken as they pry it from my cold dead hand. The President was right that this issue must be addressed, and I don't have an answer. How can our nation keep idiots like the one in Connecticut for getting their hands on guns. Opinions?

It's the gun free zones that are being selected by these cowardly mass murderers. I believe that if school personnel had weapons training and training on how to defend their students, schools would not be a hotbed for these shooting sprees. I'm talking about all levels from preschool up through college.  If there were responsible adults carrying weapons in the Newtown school, I firmly believe there would have been fewer casualties.

I don't mind more stringent background checks for purchasing weapons, but keeping guns out of law-abiding citizens' hands is not the solution.

I'm with you Stogie!

I agree also with an astrick. Be almighty careful which administrators and personnel that you arm. I have worked with a lot of very good and dedicated teachers but I would be slow to trust some of them with a firearm.

To stop what happened in Connecticut from happening again we should stop asking how we prevent guys like that from getting their hands on guns and start focusing on how what made him tick the way he ticked. Once a person is able to rationalize killing two classrooms full of six-year-olds, the means they use to go about it is a moot point.

Our society's mindset has long been to blame the means rather than the cause. Until we get serious about the cause, things aren't going to change. It will be harder for law-abiding gun owners to purchase guns, they won't be able to purchase some of the guns they like and use, and it will cost them more to do so, with more red tape. And our kids will keep dying at the hands of madmen.

Agree

on the method, methods can and will be adapted, focus on how we as a society have reached this point of having so little value for life. I also see the media coverage as encouraging reluctant nutjobs to "go ahead and join in". When these depraved, sick, evil individuals have their name and face repeatedly broadcast 24/7 for days on end, those that are mentally unstable see the "fame" they too can attain and perhaps even more fame if they can outdo the last guy. Guns are the easy, superficial response that will produce no impact (we had the bans for years and there was no impact on gun violence....we know this but it's the easy feel good response).

What's crazy is damn near that many people die each day in chicago from gun related crimes.  It's tragic that is happened no questions asked..but the media force feeds the masses and pulls at the hearts of so many people.  Then comes in .....we must ban all guns...guns are evil. People are evil not the firearms!  More people die daily from heart disease than all the gun crimes combined....what's next?  tax Ronald...don't let him make anymore burgers?  Wendy doesn't get to stay in the game?  Same goes with tobacco related deaths!   I blame the media for alot of the mass hysteria on the gun issue!

I won't say I'm for are against this, but don't come into my home without knocking first.   :angel:

Do you suggest that they should be armed with the weapons in the following videos which are the same as that used in Newtown?  Look at the videos carefully and realize that they are presently legal though present you with automatic fire.  Personly,  these rifles must be controlled and from the second video you will notice that many more legal weapons can be made automatics during fire. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD213VW6WjY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD213VW6WjY)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U6tORrODJE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U6tORrODJE)

No.

If you are so inclined Ruger makes it easy to contact all your elected officials in one fell swoop.

http://www.ruger.com/micros/advocacy/takeAction.html (http://www.ruger.com/micros/advocacy/takeAction.html)

Thanks.

Thoughts on this... http://news.msn.com/us/photos-of-man-with-rifle-in-utah-store-go-viral ...
I'll give mine. This guy needs to have his arse kicked. Who gives him the right to endanger the public like this. If another gun toter sees him and reacts (or overreacts ) who and how many get hurt? This puts an exclamation point on the need for some kind of change. He says he was trying to make a statement. If he doesn't have the vocabulary to express his sentiments, then he needs to go back for the education that goes with his HS diploma.

So, who is he endangering?  He is abiding by the law.  And secondly, who gives him the right?  The laws of the state of Utah give him that right.  

First thought as to who is endandered would be innocent bystanders. You are correct in that the state of Utah gives him that right, thus my opinion that some kind of change is necessary. Keep in mind that I am big on second amendment rights but carrying an assault rifle around just to be seen is asking for trouble and nuts like this are (some of) the reasons for a need to change some things. I know a guy that I ran into while I was exiting Wal-Mart and he was packing heat on his hip. He was not a lawman but a guy we (TWRA) dealt with from time to time. He had a permit and knowing him as I do the only reason for him to be carrying was for show. The last few days there have been at least 5 people injured at gun shows (all by accident) across the nation. Some may have the right to tote but that doesn't mean they have the mental capacity to do so prudently.   

I don't think the guy targeted the school because it was gun free.  Supposedly he had some issues with his mother working there.  I would not be opposed to armed guards at schools.  Not at all. I think some inner city schools do have part time police on campus, though ICBW.

I also don't favor gun control, but does the second amendment really cover fully automatic assault rifles, and what are those for anyway?  What about grenades and rocket launchers?  Some common sense limits on caliber and automatic-fire capability, I don't see what the big deal is.

No, his mother did not work there - never did.  That was false information the media put out there in their haste to get the scoop.  It was proved wrong.  Were I a gambling man, I would bet that he did target the school precisely because it is a gun free zone. 

What exactly, and be exact, is an assault rifle?  Are you referring to semi automatic rifles? 

Fully automatic rifles are already illegal.  Semi automatic rifles have to have the trigger pulled for each shot. 

And for the fans of "what are they thinking", the law that the state legislature of New York passed and that the Governor signed in to law failed to exempt law enforcement from possessing a magazine holding more than 7 rounds.  That means that now the criminals, who won't follow the law, now have more firepower than does law enforcement.  That's a result of the knee jerk reaction of the left.  They are going off half cocked (pun intended) without thinking about the consequences of their actions. 

OK, so exactly how is he endangering bystanders?  He has a permit to carry a weapon from the state of Utah. 

I have to go back a couple of my posts but I stated if he runs into another person packing heat and intentions are misunderstood then it's OK Corral all over again. People fly off the handle all the time and there's no way to identify them until it's too late. If everybody had a sign to hang around their neck distinguishing the sane for the wackos, or one that says "Don't pi$$ me off, I'm having a bad day." then let's all go armed. If this guys intention was to scare the hell out of somebody then he succeeded in the case of the lady that took the picture. It may not scare somebody that's on a level playing field then you have a problem. Heck, of the five people hurt this past weekend at gun shows four were bystanders and only one guy shot himself in the hand.

OK, again - he is a law abiding citizen with a permit to carry a weapon.  How is he endangering anybody?  What you posted doesn't answer anything.  You are assuming that individuals who legally own weapons and have permits to carry them aren't responsible enough to know when they should be used. 

Show me an example of where a person with a legal carry permit has committed a crime or done what you are claiming could happen.

 

Way too early to give examples since this carrying of AR-14's or other weapons openly is a revived concept of ancient times. I'm sure I could dig into archives of the 1870's to the early 1900's old west newspapers and find many accounts but I'm not that interested in the topic to do that. It's only my opinion just like most other posts here.
 
Case isn't decided yet but George Zimmerman has (or had) a permit and is charged with a crime (second degree murder). Not giving this example as a conviction of Zimmerman, I'll let the jury decide that. More http://www.csgv.org/issues-and-campaigns/concerns-about-concealed-carry/homicides-committed-by-concealed-handgun-permit-holders-in-florida That's just in Florida. I didn't search any other states. As far as assuming that permit carriers don't have enough sense to do so responsibly, I gave one about the guy I met outside Wal-Mart. Given it's only my opinion having known him for over twenty-five years but my opinion counts too. He will never commit a crime with a gun again (previous violations were hunting related) since he passed away a few weeks ago.

Here's an example FOR allowing people to tote guns unrestricted. It's from FOX NEWS so it may be slanted just a bit. (I'm just trying to be fair and balanced  :wink: ) http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149250,00.html

Since you asked, :tongue: I remember Harry Coleman was convicted of 2nd degree murder in Cordova while I was working in Memphis.
It was over a freakin' parking space. :rolleyes:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/jul/16/coleman-guilty-Cordova-parking-lot-shooting/ (http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/jul/16/coleman-guilty-Cordova-parking-lot-shooting/)

While looking for a non-Commercial Appeal source for this (because you'll get a pay-firewall notice after clicking four links there), I found 117 HCP holders who were convicted for killings committed between 2007-2012 listed at http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwtotalkilled.pdf (http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwtotalkilled.pdf):

001) unknown #01 (4 Michigan   unnamed HCP holders convicted for 2010-2011 killings)
002) unknown #02
003) unknown #03
004) unknown #04
005) unknown #01 (3 Michigan   unnamed HCP holders convicted for 2009-2010 killings)
006) unknown #02
007) unknown #03
008) unknown #01 (1 Michigan   unnamed HCP holder  convicted for 2007-2008 killing)
009) unknown #01 (1 Minnesota unnamed HCP holder  convicted for 2008 killing)
010) unknown #01 (2 Texas       unnamed HCP holders convicted for 2011 killings)
011) unknown #02
012) unknown #01 (6 Texas       unnamed HCP holders convicted for 2010 killings)
013) unknown #02
014) unknown #03
015) unknown #04
016) unknown #05
017) unknown #06
018) unknown #01 (1 Texas      unnamed HCP holder  convicted for 2009 killing)
019) unknown #01 (3 Texas      unnamed HCP holders convicted for 2008 killings)
020) unknown #02
021) unknown #03
022) Bart Johnson
023) Laquintta Turk
024) Kathy Lowe
025) Joshua Jones
026) William Phillips
027) James Boll
028) David Noriega
029) Justin Campos
030) Leonel Marquetti
031) James Menard
032) Paul Merhige
033) Lenin Florian
034) Humberto Delgado
035) Andrew Conley
036) William Garrido
037) Dam Lopez
038) Paul Kallenbach
039) Guillermo Zarabozo
040) Ardese Day
041) Charles Johnston
042) Chris Stone
043) Jeremy Hobbs
044) Lucas Holland
045) William Calderon
046) Larry Wilson
047) Brian McGuire
048) William Seidl
049) Charles Richter
050) John Tassinari
051) Hayes Bacall
052) Edward Bell
053) Tigh Croff
054) Jamar Pinkney
055) Harlan Drake
056) Kevin Hoover
057) Salam Zora
058) Troy Brake
059) Michelle Wilson
060) Johnnie Pulley
061) Alex Kopystenski
062) Frank Garcia
063) Eric Gilbert
064) Lionel Loya
065) William Littleton
066) Bobby Bordeaux
067) John Gallaher
068) Jamez Mellion
069) David Ramey
070) Mark Langlois
071) Shawn Kortz
072) Matthew Warmus
073) Shamon McDavis
074) Matthew Culbertson
075) Ashford Thompson
076) Geraldine Beasley
077) Terrance Hough
078) Gary Buoy
079) Jerome Ersland
080) Kenneth Gumm
081) Tyler Smith
082) Joel Jensen
083) Marqus Hill
084) Yvonne Hiller
085) Paul Hansen
086) Kirk Caldwell
087) Greg Baker
088) Jonathan Reyes
089) Shannon Mayo
090) Johan Pujols
091) Joel Atkin
092) Richard Poplawski
093) Fernando Gotay
094) Christina Korbe
095) Nicholas Gianquitti
096) Julian Battle
097) Randolph Sims
098) Michael Hood
099) Frank Graham
100) Thomas Pate
101) Harry Coleman
102) Demetria Nance
103) Raul Rodriguez
104) Ronnie Cook
105) Alan Godin
106) Mary Hanson
107) David Ragsdale
108) Eugene C. Wright
109) Peter Simpson
110) Reginald Royals
111) Willie Donaldson
112) Evan Gargiulo
113) Wesley Earnest
114) Amanda Knight
115) Keira S. Earhart
116) Richard Peters
117) Christopher Bowling

...and 60 pending convictions for killings during the same period:

01) unknown #01 (5 Michigan  unnamed HCP holders charges are pending for 2010-2011 killings)
02) unknown #02
03) unknown #03
04) unknown #04
05) unknown #05
06) unknown #01 (3 Michigan  unnamed HCP holders charges are pending for 2009-2010 killings)
07) unknown #02
08) unknown #03
09) unknown #01 (5 Michigan  unnamed HCP holders charges are pending for 2007-2008 killings)
10) unknown #02
11) unknown #03
12) unknown #04
13) unknown #05
14) unknown #01 (1 unnamed state's unnamed HCP holder charges are pending for 2012 killing)
15) Tracey Grissom
16) Thomas Bodine
17) Solomon Davis
18) Vincent Williams
19) Richard Tauch
20) Daniel Baker
21) Allana Carey
22) Michael Dunn
23) Kenneth Roop
24) George Zimmerman
25) Wilmen Diaz
26) Hewart Bailey
27) Emanuel Rivera
28) Trevor Dooley
29) Narcisse Antoine
30) James Wonder
31) Gabriel Mobley
32) Adam Hill
33) Javaris Crittenton
34) David McCall
35) Jerry Bourque
36) Ed Myers
37) Akbar Rana
38) Michael Moreno
39) David Nesbitt
40) Darrell Laffoon
41) William Allabaugh
42) Kevin Cleeves
43) Andrew Gesslein
44) Robert Jones
45) Danny Kirtley
46) William Moreland
47) Matthew Miller
48) Gregory Booton
49) Norman Whitton
50) Troy Whiteside
51) Martino Johnson
52) Crystal Scott
53) Dennis Redding
54) William Franklin
55) Richard Calderon
56) Bradley Gregory
57) Ali Abid
58) Dinh Bowman
59) Eric Vita
60) Cornelius DeJong

a 6 yr period (less than 20/yr) out weighs the over 2 million gun owners who prevented a crime against themselves just last year?   :patriot:

The statement was "Show me an example of where a person with a legal carry permit has committed a crime or done what you are claiming could happen." And that is what Quasi did 117 times. My point is that SOMETHING must be done to slow this trend of gun violence. As I have stated I am big on second rights amendments, but 20 defenseless children dead is unacceptable. What is wrong with background checks at gun shows and waiting periods for even law abiding citizens so they don't knee jerk react to some assumed wrong done them? Even if only one life is saved, isn't it worth it? I checked out Quasi's links but I'm not sure where the 2 million # comes from. I do not doubt you, but I would like to see the link so I can evaluate the context of the article.
 
edit: How would any of the of the proposals presented prevent someone from defending themselves? I haven't seen any that say citizens can't purchase and possess guns. All I've seen is limiting size of clips, and background checks at gun shows.

I'm all for background checks at gun shows, no problem with it. I do not support the mag limit portion as this will not save any lives and will eventually lead to no detachable mag's. There are many laws being proposed to ban AR's etc. as was warned would happen but many said "no one is looking to take your guns". Oregon or Wash St. one has proposed mandatory once/yr in home visits from police to verify compliance with proposed gun laws. It's a very slippery slope. It has been demonstrated time and time again that laws such as those proposed have no statistically significant impact on gun violence (this is why the Brady ban, enacted for something like 16 yrs, was rescinded and this is precisely what they are proposing again). Since criminals will not obey gun laws, the only logical way to achieve what the left is pushing for (i.e. safety from all gun violence) is to confiscate and outlaw gun ownership and this is where they would take us. Even one child dying is horrible, but gun laws will not stop it.  :patriot:

I don't argue that the Brady Bill was effective but mostly unenforced (lack of prosecution mostly) but I ran across this today. http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/06/17213303-fewer-gun-deaths-in-states-with-most-gun-laws-study-finds?lite

depends on the criteria used and methods employed. I don't need a study to tell me what I can discern myself....criminals, by definition, do not obey laws. What afflicts America is not lack of gun laws, it is a lack of morals that would dictate a respect for life and respect for others. People get angry for the most insignificant of reasons and are instantly ready to kill someone in order to alleviate an inconvenience or to administer retribution for a perceived offense. A gun in the hand of a good law abiding citizen, who respects the gun and understands how to safely handle the gun is a threat to no one. A person who has no respect for life or others is a threat to everyone whether they have a gun or not, they will find a tool that will allow them to rape, rob and kill.    :patriot:

Agree that both sides can take the same numbers and spin them to meet their own ends. I think we mostly agree on ownership of guns, and the lack of respect for others in our society is demonstrated.

Would someone please explain to me how limits on magazine capacity would have prevented Sandy Hook?

Would someone explain to me how a waiting period for gun purchases would have prevented Sandy Hook?

Everyone wants to say that 20 dead children is inexcusable and then launch into a litany of gun changes that we should adopt that would have done NOTHING to stop that act of cowardly violence.

I saw the statement that we must do something to curb gun violence in this country, as if it is out of control. Look at the crime stats. Our rate of gun violence is already being reduced. Specifically, the homicide rate for rifles (which includes assault rifles as well as "ordinary" rifles) is down 15 percent in five years. Is it still way too high? Yes. But there is only so much that laws can do. Britain has ridiculous gun laws and their violent crime rate is extremely high -- way higher than the violent crime rate here in the U.S.

Again, focus on the cause, not the means.

Would someone explain to me how a waiting period for gun purchases would have prevented Sandy Hook?

 It's also called a cooling off period. It's a chance to give someone who is really pissed off an opportunity to calm down. Sandy Hook ws not a sudden urge to gun down a bunch of innocents but a planned cowardly act carried out by an insane monster. No one said it would prevent a specific incident but there is a chance it might stop one or more sometime. Asking one to prove it stopped something that didn't happen is impossible, so we have to rely on common sense and a little foresight to anticipate. Is the NRA's proposal to put armed guards in every school an iron clad cure for gun violence on campuses? There are armed campus policemen at practically every college nationwide and it still happens. I have mentioned waiting periods and background checks but I will go even further and say mandatory gun safety classes before being allowed to purchase weapons. I know not many here will agree to that but I think it's time to act with a reasonable approach. Also put some teeth in the law by prosecuting violators. The status quo is not working .

You're the one who brought up Sandy Hook. You can't bring up Sandy Hook and use it to play on people's emotions for gun control support then back away from it and say that it doesn't apply to the argument. Either it does or it doesn't.

A mandatory waiting period for gun purchases is nothing but a hindrance to law-abiding gun owners. I think you're going to have a difficult time finding many instances of someone who went out and purchased a gun in a fit of rage and immediately used it to kill someone. Especially with these mass murders, they're often planned out over a period of many days and usually weeks or months.

Comparing the proposal for law enforcement in schools to colleges is an apples-oranges comparison. College campuses are almost always many times larger than high school or elementary school campuses, and their police departments are understaffed. College PDs aren't really there to provide student security so much as they're there to write parking tickets, investigate robberies and things like that. Would an armed guard inside every school stop every single nutjob who carries a gun into a school? No. But it would sure as heck stop some of them. Probably most of them, even. To me it is a common sense proposal. Everywhere you look nowadays there are armed security guards...except our public schools. It just doesn't make sense.

Fortunately, mandatory gun safety classes for gun purchases is such a far-out idea that it isn't going to happen.

Fortunately, mandatory gun safety classes for gun purchases is such a far-out idea that it isn't going to happen. Why? You give no reason. Did you take a drivers test before you got your license to drive a car? You have to take hunters safety classes before you can use a gun to hunt. I would like to think that anyone who possesses a firearm has some notion of how and when to use it.

I have to take a driver's test before I USE my car. There's no law that I'm aware of that says I cannot purchase a car without a DL. With the exceptions of Arizona, Vermont and Alaska (and I understand a similar move is currently underway in Utah), you have to have safety training (and a litany of other requirements) to carry a handgun...which includes the vast majority of people who are going to have a gun in public. Those who are going to break the law by using a gun to kill someone are the same ones who would violate a law saying they must have proper training before they can purchase a gun. These laws are feel-good measures that largely only serve to put unnecessary restrictions on law-abiding gun owners. Do you think that if Adam Lanza or James Holmes had gone to a gun shop to purchase a gun that they couldn't have passed a mandatory safety course? Clearly they knew how to handle a gun; they proved that. A mandatory gun safety course would not stop criminals. It just wouldn't.

Where you'll get agreement from me is the need for stricter penalties, and tougher enforcement, for firearms violations. I am on the fence in regards to tougher background check laws. I wouldn't oppose a requirement for background checks at gun shows but I can't presently support the so-called universal background check that would require all private firearms transactions to take place through a licensed dealer. Those who talk about closing the "gun show loophole" are usually really after background checks for all private transactions, since the overwhelming majority of firearms transactions at gun shows take place through a licensed dealer who is in attendance, and those require background checks already.

So you don't agree with my views to slow down gun violence. What are your suggestions?

First, it deserves to be pointed out that gun violence is already slowing. It's still at an unacceptable rate, but it's slowing. The media and gun control backers would have us believe that it's at an all-time high, which just isn't true. It's been declining for years, despite no new gun laws.

My broad, all-encompassing suggestion, as I've already mentioned, is to tackle the cause rather than the means. Once you reach a point where you're willing to take a human life, you're going to find a way to do it. Period. There are many more people killed each year by someone's bare hands or by knives than are killed with a rifle of any kind, AR-15 or not. Obviously it's not feasible to round up all the knives out there. We have to start getting serious about WHY this is happening, not HOW it is happening.

Most of these mass murderers demonstrated signs that something was amiss for a while before they finally snapped. We've got to start doing a better job of identifying the signs of these nutcases. We've got to take a look at violence in our society — movies, video games. I do not think those things are solely responsible any more than I think guns are solely responsible, but they do play a role. One of the greatest ironies of this gun debate is the fact that most Hollywood stars who glorify violence in movies and TV shows are steadfast proponents of gun control. We've got to fix our issues with morality. I don't know what the solution is there, but I think you'll find America's moral decay at the root of this entire problem. We've got to start placing more value on marriage. We need fathers to start being fathers again. Millions of kids grow up in single parent households with dads who suck or who run out, and they grow up to be perfectly normal. But many mass murderers come from broken homes.

What can we do in terms of legislation to reduce the level of violence in our society? I truly don't know. The No. 1 priority should be funding for an armed security officer in every public school in America. That won't reduce violence but it will keep our kids a little safer. What's wrong with letting teachers with concealed carry permits carry their weapons on their person at school? I'm not opposed to making them undergo even more training while doing so, but the benefits far outweigh the risks, as far as I'm concerned. I would support laws enacting tougher punishment for gun law violators, and laws that crack down on licensed gun dealers who knowingly sell firearms to prohibited persons. But the bottom line is that we've got to change our approach. We've got to get away from concentrating on the tools these guys are using and start concentrating on what drives them to do it in the first place.

I don't disagree with alot you say. I am a retired teacher and I will say this about letting teachers carry weapons. There way too many off the beam teachers (they didn't start out that way but job pressure put them there). Careful screening should be used before arming anyone. I still don't get your opposition to mandatory gun safety classes. Even if it deters one single incident by making a potential perp realize the gravity of his actions, isn't it worth it? How many acidental discharges of weapons by basic understanding could be countless.

I don't like the "if it saves one life" argument. To that I would apply Ben Franklin's famous words about those who are willing to give up liberty for security.

One thing I do think is a good idea is offering firearms safety training in middle school or high school. The NRA and National Wild Turkey Federation has teamed up here to offer just such a program in our schools. I'm just opposed to the idea of mandating stuff like that for making purchases that are constitutionally guaranteed.

Here is an effort to stop gun violence...http://news.msn.com/us/arizona-gun-proponents-launch-free-gun-program
Not sure I like this but it might have an effect. I did notice that those that recieve shotguns must take the training.

the call for bans on weapons is coming only from those that fear them and know nothing about them. Because of someone else's fear and ignorance, you want to take away everyone else's constitutional rights?

I've carried a REAL assault rifle for more than half my life. Fully automatic ones, even true machine guns, grenade launchers, etc. Trust me when I say this, they don't kill people unless that is the users intent. I don't see why people get so worked up over them, they are great, safe weapons.

I loathe the term "assault rifle". One of the most ignorant terms ever created