Interesting Hyams article outlining many of the Title IX lawsuit charges

[Black Diamond Vol]

I'm not sure I agree with his closing stance about going to trial vs. settling.  It's early in the process and we'll have to see all the evidence from both sides.  If it looks like a slam dunk that UT can win, then by all means fight the charges.  But as of right now, I'm leaning towards settling and putting this mess behind us ASAP.

http://gridironnow.com/theres-a-lot-of-smoke-at-tennessee-is-there-a-fire/

[FLVOL]

I happen to agree with him; fight it if nothing happened  (and independently)

[tshadow]

I happen to agree with him; fight it if nothing happened  (and independently)

I agree. The plantiffs in this case are probably getting bad advice from their lawyers. If UT settles it is the victim of predatory litigation... Guess what they don't have.... They don't have criminal convictions for criminal allegations. The prominent case where CBJ is "involved" is a case where the accused students were dismissed from the team by CBJ. Do they expect him to go farther in the case than that? Is anyone suggesting to add to a coaches responsibilities to investigate criminal allegations? If I were a Judge I would tell them to stop putting the cart before the horse and get the convictions.

[BanditVol]

Well the flap over Drae Bowles is tomato tamahto IMO.  Maggit either shoved or punched him.  Does that even matter?  A push to the chest is a lot like a shove, no?

And whatever happened with Lane, it doesn't reflect well on him.  Sloppy seconds with an 18 year old?   

And believe me, I am not as pure as the driven snow, but that's just disgusting.

It does seem some of the cases are weak, but two points:

1. I go back to something I posted earlier.  When I was at UT, the "administrative process" was a cluster fizzle JOKE, that almost always screwed the student.  Sounds to me like nothing has changed and that yes SOMETHING fizzleING NEEDS TO BE DONE ALREADY. I say this having definitely gotten my share of "the big orange screw" over the years.  This doesn't mean UT admits a DELIBERATE institutional culture problem, but their admin process is fizzleED imo and should be fixed, not just for this bs but for everything.

2. Hyams ends with: "And I do know you are presumed innocent until proven guilty, even if you are accused of or charged with sexual assault."

I mean...I don't even know where to begin.  That is a profoundly ignorant statement on multiple levels.  Its a CIVIL TRIAL fizzle NUTS!

Jesus h christ. Thank god he's not an attorney.  Maybe he can go see the Wizard of Oz for a brain, because he needs one.

[BanditVol]

Another thing....he mentions Jenny Wright....she's not even part of the lawsuit, she has just agreed to testify in the case.  Why even mention it?  Further, a lot of the incidents occurred after she left.  And she dated someone in the athletic department?  Big fizzleing deal.  Her boss removed her from her position?  Did he have a choice?  Uhm...he also resigned not long after that and called it "intolerable".

Where are these students claiming she had sex with them?  Let them take the stand under oath and present evidence.  Until then, unsubstantiated allegations in an investigation I haven't seen don't convince me.


finally, take the case of Lane again.  The student dropped the charges and transferred.  But...and this is not some trivial detail....

She is claiming that she felt pressured to drop the charges and that the system was slanted towards the player.  That's not something you can just dismiss in a blog.  And based on my experience with the joke admin procedure at UT, she probably did get screwed.  No pun intended.   

None of this is to say that I think there is a huge problem at UT as implied by the lawsuit, but I do think a few things could have been handled better.  Whether to settle or not will have to be decided by the University, I just hope they make the right call for the sake of the institution.

What I AM saying is that Hyams is as dumb as a box of rocks, and some of his arguments are about the stupidest fizzleing thing I have ever seen in print.

That is all, thank you.   

[Black Diamond Vol]

Well, I've mostly held my tongue and reserved judgement on this case, because the nature of a civil suit is that the plaintiff's case is put on public display first before the defense gets a chance for discovery and response.  Right now, the defense hasn't even begun to present their case, so that could change the picture drastically. 

But let's be honest here- it may not PC to say so, but the welfare of the football program is going to be the overriding factor in a decision to settle.  And it appears that this is already having an effect on recruiting.  In what is possibly the strongest year ever for in-state recruits, we're currently sitting on a big fat goose egg.  We've lost couple highly rated commits already, and though they didn't come out and say so, it's hard to imagine that this case (and the negative recruiting from our rivals that comes with it) didn't play some part in their decisions. 

We could fight these charges and maybe even win- but that could take 2-3 years.  By that time, at this rate, we could be back to a Dooley-esque talent level.   

[Tnphil]

Well, I've mostly held my tongue and reserved judgement on this case, because the nature of a civil suit is that the plaintiff's case is put on public display first before the defense gets a chance for discovery and response.  Right now, the defense hasn't even begun to present their case, so that could change the picture drastically. 

But let's be honest here- it may not PC to say so, but the welfare of the football program is going to be the overriding factor in a decision to settle.  And it appears that this is already having an effect on recruiting.  In what is possibly the strongest year ever for in-state recruits, we're currently sitting on a big fat goose egg.  We've lost couple highly rated commits already, and though they didn't come out and say so, it's hard to imagine that this case (and the negative recruiting from our rivals that comes with it) didn't play some part in their decisions. 

We could fight these charges and maybe even win- but that could take 2-3 years.  By that time, at this rate, we could be back to a Dooley-esque talent level.   

IIRC those 2 de-committed before the lawsuit came out?

[tshadow]

True all... but again... the students accused are dismissed from the team. It would seem to me that they need to stop trying to pile up incidents willy nilly and choose only the cases that tend to convey what they are actually trying to litigate. The weaker cases would tend to show the motive if not of the plantiffs surely of their lawyers. What I'm trying to say is not too long ago on this board someone indicated the monetary worth of UT athletics. Shortly after that these cases started popping up. Maybe the lawyers read the paper also.

[PirateVOL]

True all... but again... the students accused are dismissed from the team. It would seem to me that they need to stop trying to pile up incidents willy nilly and choose only the cases that tend to convey what they are actually trying to litigate. The weaker cases would tend to show the motive if not of the plantiffs surely of their lawyers. What I'm trying to say is not too long ago on this board someone indicated the monetary worth of UT athletics. Shortly after that these cases started popping up. Maybe the lawyers read the paper also.

not if your only interest is extortion ...

[EmerilVOL]

Another thing....he mentions Jenny Wright....she's not even part of the lawsuit, she has just agreed to testify in the case.  Why even mention it?  Further, a lot of the incidents occurred after she left.  And she dated someone in the athletic department?  Big fizzleing deal.  Her boss removed her from her position?  Did he have a choice?  Uhm...he also resigned not long after that and called it "intolerable".

Where are these students claiming she had sex with them?  Let them take the stand under oath and present evidence.  Until then, unsubstantiated allegations in an investigation I haven't seen don't convince me.


finally, take the case of Lane again.  The student dropped the charges and transferred.  But...and this is not some trivial detail....

She is claiming that she felt pressured to drop the charges and that the system was slanted towards the player.  That's not something you can just dismiss in a blog.  And based on my experience with the joke admin procedure at UT, she probably did get screwed.  No pun intended.  

None of this is to say that I think there is a huge problem at UT as implied by the lawsuit, but I do think a few things could have been handled better.  Whether to settle or not will have to be decided by the University, I just hope they make the right call for the sake of the institution.

What I AM saying is that Hyams is as dumb as a box of rocks, and some of his argumentsyy are about the stupidest fizzleing thing I have ever seen in print.

That is all, thank you.    

I have held my tongue on some of the things said on this forum but it is time to let the chips fall where they may.  First of all I do not support sexual assault and/or rape or any other sexual crime, but I also do NOT favor doing away with the constitution of the United States either.  The Obama executive order that directed the changes to the enforcement conditions that the Dept of Education (and I use the word education guardedly since they don't seem to understand learning) modified the conditions and methods that universities had to undergo to satisfy Title IX were off the charts.  First of all, the changes made were basically saying that the proof of a "sexual attack" was less than a preponderance of the evidence which in effect violates the constitution in protecting an accused rights in a trial to be "convicted beyond a reasonable doubt" and would be akin to having a jury trial and only seven of the jurors voting for conviction and that being the decision.  This is intolerable on many fronts.  Secondly the lawsuit uses as a basis of "fact" the current ongoing criminal trials of Johnson, Williams, and the latest with Alex Johnson.  How , in da hell could a lawyer even say with a straight face that they have a preponderance of the evidence when the trial is still ongoing.  

I find without a doubt that yes there have been "crimes of passion" at UT (and every other college campus in the US), but to state UT fosters a culture of violence is freaking wrong on many accounts.  That is like saying you promote a culture of stupidity if you make a mistake in typing on a keyboard and misspelling a word.  

[BanditVol]

I find without a doubt that yes there have been "crimes of passion" at UT (and every other college campus in the US), but to state UT fosters a culture of violence is freaking wrong on many accounts.  That is like saying you promote a culture of stupidity if you make a mistake in typing on a keyboard and misspelling a word.  

I agree completely, but the standard in a civil trial is weak, and not what Hyams seemed to be implying.  "Culture of violence" just straight up reeks of BS, but that doesn't mean that the UT admin process doesn't need an overhaul, and a few of the cases might have been mishandled.