So

[ReVOLver]

The team didn't quit. Positive sign. Defense is the worst I've ever seen. Pretty bad sign. Running game looked good. Positive sign. Bray folds under pressure. Bad sign. Offensive game plan was great... Good sign. Taking a timeout that you needed later because you only had 9 guys on the field and then giving up the 2 points anyway? I don't have to tell you what kind off sign that is.

Does that game change anything for me? Nothing will change for me until I see tangible evidence of a win against a good SEC team that isn't of the moral variety. Every week, it's the "turning point" where people are saying "lets see how this plays out." State will be the third such game this year. When they lose that one, it will be Alabama. Then it will be SC. And then there we'll be at the end of the year at 6-6 or 7-5 with somebody in the AD trying to feed us a bullshizzle message about progress.

I did something the other day that I probably shouldn't have done, but would do again... I deleted a post by Pirate and locked one of my own threads with no other comments attached. I did that because it appeared that he was taking the passive aggressive position of going back and reading old posts. The implication seemed to be that people sang a different tune in the past. I remember what my stance was and I don't shy away from that. I remember saying Dooley deserved 5 years to return to championship contention. However the key phrase there is championship contention. We are no closer to competing for championships than we were the day he coached his first game. The UGa loss looks suspiciously like Red Stick in 2010, just with more offense. When I said he deserved 5 years, I envisioned 6-6, 8-4, 9-3, 10-2 with a push to the top in year 5. That isn't going to happen.

Is the season lost? No, not officially. But, what has this team and staff done that gives anyone confidence that they will get over the hump? If you are pointing to the Georgia game as evidence of that, seek help because we won't beat Mizzou, much less MSU or SC if our defense plays that badly unless they do what UGa did and give us a bunch of turnovers.

Just as with last week, all they have to do to shut me up is show me. I dont believe it will happen, but I'm waiting.

[Black Diamond Vol]

From what I can gather, it seems that both "sides" of this argument feel pretty much the same way: Dooley has to win a meaningful game or two to keep his job.  The only difference is, one side is optimistic that he can do that, while the other side is not.  I will say that before yesterday, I saw beating MSU and USC as pretty much impossible.  But now I think we have at least a puncher's chance to outscore them in a track meet.  Failing that, it's time for a change.  But I'm through arguing about it until we reach that point.

[BanditVol]

I don't disagree with your summary of the game, although so much happened in that game that a lot more could be said.

This part puzzles me a bit.

Does that game change anything for me? Nothing will change for me until I see tangible evidence of a win against a good SEC team that isn't of the moral variety. Every week, it's the "turning point" where people are saying "lets see how this plays out." State will be the third such game this year. When they lose that one, it will be Alabama. Then it will be SC.

I don't really see this in a general sense.  Definitely some of the posters on here, including you, staked a lot on the Florida game.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I never saw it as more than a 50-50 game and really wasn't counting on it to make or break this season.   I never really expected us to beat uga either, just thought it would be great if we did.  MSU is the first game against a ranked opponent that I think we can win, and after Saturday I think we should.

No matter how bad our D is, MSU's offense is no where near as good as uga's, which is the best in the SEC and probably at least in the top 5 nationally.

That doesn't excuse our shizzlety performance Saturday, but after playing UF and uga, who are in fact both top 10 teams, and then coming away feeling we should have won both of those games in spite of numerous mistakes, I think I can feel some confidence about MSU.   

[Inspector Vol]

I understand both sides of this. I would not have been so down had the the team and coaches not laid down in the uf game. Despite the score against uga i saw a team that got very lucky not  to get ran off the field. uga let up some when it was 27-10. If we had what it took to win  these games we would have taken the 2nd half kick and scored to go ahead but we didnt and promptly went down 2 scores before we responded. We have yet to play any where near 60 min in a game........that is coaching or lack thereof IMHO.

I still think we were outclassed talent wise by a wide margin also. 

[ReVOLver]

From what I can gather, it seems that both "sides" of this argument feel pretty much the same way: Dooley has to win a meaningful game or two to keep his job.  The only difference is, one side is optimistic that he can do that, while the other side is not.

/thread

[VinnieVOL]

Bossman echoes my thoughts.  UF was/is not just another SEC game. 

[RockinGrannyVol]

Bossman echoes my thoughts.  UF was/is not just another SEC game.  

I'm historically one of those that goes easier on the coach/team , but I feel exactly as the boss does now.   If it's not a win, it's just another LOSS.  I'm tire of losing to teams we can and should have beat had we played 4 quarters of FB on both sides of the ball.   UF and UGA both fall into that category this year.

[BanditVol]

I understand both sides of this. I would not have been so down had the the team and coaches not laid down in the uf game.

We have yet to play any where near 60 min in a game........that is coaching or lack thereof IMHO.

I still think we were outclassed talent wise by a wide margin also.  

Point by point...they didn't lay down against uga did they?

You're right.  But if we ever do go 60 minutes, how good can we be?

We are not out-classed nearly as badly as we used to be.  I would say that the top teams still have an edge, but it is eroding.  Another year of good-to-great recruiting and we will perhaps be there, two years and we will for sure.  IF we recruit well.  

[BanditVol]

Defense is the worst I've ever seen.

But, what has this team and staff done that gives anyone confidence that they will get over the hump? If you are pointing to the Georgia game as evidence of that, seek help

This point I have to respond to.   After UF, there tremendous moaning, pissing, and whining complaining (trying to improve my tone, lol) about two things:  Our run game, and the lack of commitment thereto, and the "mental weakness" of the staff and team for folding in the 4th.

Both of those improved massively, IMO, in just two games.

Now our D suxes against the run.  It has all season, perhaps it just got exposed more against uga, or we may even have taken a step back. 

Well there you go.  We face two very strong rush attacks in our next two games.  I watched the Dooley show.  He said we didn't do a good job "setting the edge" (whatever the hell that means), and that we lacked the fundamentals of tackling in the backfield.  Spot on!   

So we have a bye week and a chance to try to fix that.  Will they?  Hell, we just ran for almost 200 yards on a top 5 team after being ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH IN THE COUNTRY last year!  That is PROGRESS.

On D, it sounds to me like we are just screwing up some fundamental things.  Fundamentals should be easy to fix for a good coaching staff.  Will they make progress vs. MSU?  Stay tuned and see! 

The important thing to me is that the players not lose confidence in themselves and the coaches and keep trying. 

As bad as our running D was, the hope I have is that if we are screwing up simple things, they might be easy to fix.  Just have to go do it.  We'll see.....

[Inspector Vol]

Point by point...they didn't lay down against uga did they?

You're right.  But if we ever do go 60 minutes, how good can we be?

We are not out-classed nearly as badly as we used to be.  I would say that the top teams still have an edge, but it is eroding.  Another year of good-to-great recruiting and we will perhaps be there, two years and we will for sure.  IF we recruit well.  

I agree with all you said, I am just discouraged even if there are improvements here and there. And yes on the defensive side of the ball we are outclassed badly IMHO. We have a couple of decent players and that is about it this year. Db's are too slow. DL still gets little push for their size. Maggitt is by far our best defensive player. We are waaay too slow on defense and have no discipline. DE's will not push upfield to push the wide run out further and the outside backer gets pinned inside every freaking time! Part of that is coaching and the other part is stupidity on the player for not learning during the game. Even if the DE pushes the rb wider than he wants to go we are still too slow to cut him off. Everyone loves AJ Johnson but all I see is a physical specimen that is a step too slow to play in the SEC. Either that or he plays completely out of position constantly.

I do think it will take 2 years or more now of better recruiting than we have done to catch up. Its obvious we can't coach well enough to pull out a win when we shouldn't.

I'll keep watching and hoping but it is really starting to wear on me. Maybe I just expected too much this year?   

[ReVOLver]

This point I have to respond to.   After UF, there tremendous moaning, pissing, and whining complaining (trying to improve my tone, lol) about two things:  Our run game, and the lack of commitment thereto, and the "mental weakness" of the staff and team for folding in the 4th.

Both of those improved massively, IMO, in just two games.

Now our D suxes against the run.  It has all season, perhaps it just got exposed more against uga, or we may even have taken a step back. 

Well there you go.  We face two very strong rush attacks in our next two games.  I watched the Dooley show.  He said we didn't do a good job "setting the edge" (whatever the hell that means), and that we lacked the fundamentals of tackling in the backfield.  Spot on!   

So we have a bye week and a chance to try to fix that.  Will they?  Hell, we just ran for almost 200 yards on a top 5 team after being ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH IN THE COUNTRY last year!  That is PROGRESS.

On D, it sounds to me like we are just screwing up some fundamental things.  Fundamentals should be easy to fix for a good coaching staff.  Will they make progress vs. MSU?  Stay tuned and see! 

The important thing to me is that the players not lose confidence in themselves and the coaches and keep trying. 

As bad as our running D was, the hope I have is that if we are screwing up simple things, they might be easy to fix.  Just have to go do it.  We'll see.....

I don't care enough to argue. The above is my opinion, and until I see a win against a team that matters, that's what my opinion will be.

[VinnieVOL]

Bottom line is none of it matters if you lose.  That's it.

[ChattanoogaVol]

I don't care enough to argue. The above is my opinion, and until I see a win against a team that matters, that's what my opinion will be.

Bottom line is none of it matters if you lose.  That's it.

AGREE 100%..............................WE should've won one of the last 2 games....................possibly both.............just frustrating..............tired of just getting closer............................We should be good enough to earn 1 of them by now.

 

[BanditVol]

AGREE 100%..............................WE should've won one of the last 2 games....................possibly both.............just frustrating..............tired of just getting closer............................We should be good enough to earn 1 of them by now.

 

No problem with that attitude.  And I think this attitude surfaced with Kentucky last year, but had been growing for some time.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  There should be strong pressure on Dooley this season after the way we ended last season, I don't care how low the talent was/is or how many injuries we had last year.

At the same time, to get where we want we have to "get closer" and with the talent we have it has to be an incremental progress.  Small steps along the way look more impressive when you get there, and believe me, we are much, much closer than last year.

In fact, some of the frustration might be a good sign.  If expectations are elevated, they should be.

Let's just not get too carried away and pull the trigger prematurely.  After going 5-7 and losing to UK, 8-4 is a great year, I don't care who you are, particularly if we get a good recruiting class in.

[VinnieVOL]

No problem with that attitude.  And I think this attitude surfaced with Kentucky last year, but had been growing for some time.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  There should be strong pressure on Dooley this season after the way we ended last season, I don't care how low the talent was/is or how many injuries we had last year.

At the same time, to get where we want we have to "get closer" and with the talent we have it has to be an incremental progress.  Small steps along the way look more impressive when you get there, and believe me, we are much, much closer than last year.

In fact, some of the frustration might be a good sign.  If expectations are elevated, they should be.

Let's just not get too carried away and pull the trigger prematurely.  After going 5-7 and losing to UK, 8-4 is a great year, I don't care who you are, particularly if we get a good recruiting class in.

Let me ask you this..  What will be your stance if we "look better" on defense and Bray "looks better" than he did vs. UGA, yet we lose to Miss St?

[BanditVol]

Let me ask you this..  What will be your stance if we "look better" on defense and Bray "looks better" than he did vs. UGA, yet we lose to Miss St?

Bray looked okay against uga until the very end. We would not be in that game without him.  Frankly I don't think he needs to look better.  (But of course I hope he does)

Our D needs to look better.  A LOT better. So the question there, is "how much better".  I am going to be very conservative, and hope they hold MSU to their season average.  Heck, I think they should sell out to stop the run, period. but what do I know.

Given the above .... if we can hold them to their season average running the ball and Bray doesn't make any turnovers (or maybe just one), it's a rhetorical question, because we WILL win.   

[VinnieVOL]

Bray looked okay against uga until the very end. We would not be in that game without him.  Frankly I don't think he needs to look better.  (But of course I hope he does)

Our D needs to look better.  A LOT better. So the question there, is "how much better".  I am going to be very conservative, and hope they hold MSU to their season average.  Heck, I think t
hey should sell out to stop the run, period. but what do I know.

Given the above .... if we can hold them to their season average running the ball and Bray doesn't make any turnovers (or maybe just one), it's a rhetorical question, because we WILL win.   

What will you say if we lose?

[BanditVol]

What will you say if we lose?

Then we had better beat bammer, huh?

Of course, we could lose to MSU and bama but beat USCe and still be 8-4, so there's that.  But I would rather not go that route, because then it leaves us open to the old "Tennessee always does well late in the year when it doesn't matter" charge.  But it would mean my min criteria.

[VinnieVOL]

"huh?" is right.  

Vandy being our only SEC win under Dooley, who in the world cares when we win... Just beat SOMEbody.

[BanditVol]

One more thought on our D.  Above I say a good coaching staff should be able to fix fundamental issues in a two-week bye, or so it seems.  They can't fix the talent, but they sure can get it to execute better.

Having said that, I have to point out that we have a totally new defensive coaching staff this season, and a new scheme.  That's not an excuse at all.  I expected some adjustment, maybe even a major adjustment. Did not expect it to be this fizzleing bad.  It's a worst-case scenario.  Apparently the new staff and scheme have fizzleed us.

But...it does hold out hope, and that's all it is, that if in fact it's an adjustment problem, then it's adjustable.   

MSU averages 184 yards per game on the ground, only slightly better than us.  It's far less than uga, who average 250 yards per game, and in case you are wondering we didn't make that average a whole lot better as we allowed 282, which is above their average but not by a whole lot.  Uga was coming off back to back 300+ yard rush games.

So on paper, MSU should be easier to stop, and with even a modest improvement (even cutting the long TD runs from 3 to 1, lol), we should be able to hold them under 30 points, IMO.

[BanditVol]

"huh?" is right.  

Vandy being our only SEC win under Dooley, who in the world cares when we win... Just beat SOMEbody.

Yes, that part about bammer was a bit understated.  

Agree with the last sentance

[BanditVol]

MSU averages 184 yards per game on the ground, only slightly better than us.  It's far less than uga, who average 250 yards per game, and in case you are wondering we didn't make that average a whole lot better as we allowed 282, which is above their average but not by a whole lot.  Uga was coming off back to back 300+ yard rush games.

I couldn't resist figuring this out...before they played us, uga averaged 241 running yards/game, so we did not greatly improve their average. 

Of course, had we played D as we are capable of, even perhaps still missing a player or two, we should have lowered that average, perhaps by a lot.