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Since Bray will only be watching the 4th.   :sleep: :violin:

I like the progression in this game much better than the last

You can polish this turd all you want, it's flipping Akron.  :rant:

We responded to adversity well this week

This

Please, tell me you're joking.  Please.

It's a 21-point win  :dielaughing: :dielaughing: :dielaughing:

If this is adversity I wonder what next week will be?

I hope Dooley saves this game film.  We may see these guys again in our bowl game. :dunno:

I'm not, but I also don't give a shizzle what you or anyone else thinks about my opinion.

 I'm done with this topic.

Wow. 

I changed my mind.  Saturday night I just got a little irritated, shouldn't just leave this hanging.

I think my irritation is due to a perception that you were starting to get annoyed at me because my opinion is different than yours.  You can get annoyed at the team or Dooley all you want, just don't get annoyed at me because I have a different opinion.  Maybe I misread and you may not have been annoyed at me, but you were definitely annoyed, and I just decided it was better not to continue the conversation at that  point.   :biggrin: 

Whatever, my point is that we are much better this year.  How many times have we had a close game against Kentucky, Vandy, or a mid-major in the past and pulled it out?  Countless times.   Was this one really all that different? 

There's a lot more I could say.  Like that the team was down after the loss at Florida and started slow (but ramped it up when it counted).  That Akron under it's new coaches is much better this year (but we should still beat the crap out of them even if they go 10-2).  That our score wasn't really that much different than the UCF score when you allow for the defensive TD (but we should be better than UCF, but realistically are we?). And I could go on and on (oops too late!)

But let me make my point this way....was Akron worse than Kentucky last year playing a WR in the QB position?   And was this a better effort than that?  And is that progress?

Here's a key point.  None of the above means that I am really happy with our performance Saturday night.  It DID suck in any of number of ways.   I don't think it was quite as bad as some would make it, and I can cite reasons why, but the only thing that I really truly hated was the long run and two long drives by them that resulted in FGs.  The turnovers I can handle.  Every team has turnovers in every game.  It would not be the first or last time we had turnovers in a game against a greatly over-matched opponent.

The bottom line is that just because someone is looking at the positive side of things, does not mean he or she is not aware of the negatives.  There were plenty of those.  But on balance, I don't see last year's team pulling it out the way this one did.

I really think these players deserve some credit for the way they finished the game, and I am not going to apologize for that to any of the numerous fans who are upset because this game did not meet THEIR personal expectations.  I am perfectly entitled to my own opinion.

And NOW I am done with this topic  thread.   :biggrin:

I'm not annoyed with you Bandit.  I enjoy your thorough and thoughtful posts.  We may not always agree, and that's ok.  It's all good, man!   :hi5:

let me interject....I thought at the beginning of the season we'd struggle with Akron. You can go back and see my 2012 prediction. I predicted UT 44  Akron 17. Now, I predicted 10 wins. I am scaling it back to 8 now, because I have seen UGA and we're not going to beat them, but it will be a close game. Also predicted we'd beat UF...so...

Reason being, I think we're improved. We have rushed for 690 yards so far, and I realize the gauntlet of the defenses is coming up...but we were much worse last year running, and that is a fact. We also rang up almost 700 yards offense on Akron - yes it's Akron but that is impressive. Bray missed two wide open TDs too. Also look closer at what Akron actually did. They were given a pick 6, a fumble for a FG, and scored on a long run which was a defensive bust. Other than that it was FGs, and they scored 3 in the second half. They had a gimmick offense that threw a lot, and got the ball out in a hurry. We played a lot of deep zone. McCullers hardly even played. Don't judge this defense on what they did against Akron. Remember Air force a few years back? These offense you see once a year are hard to prepare for....Akron came in with the 5th best passing offense in the country.

My point is, you have to look at each game case by case, and look at what this defense was built to stop. It was built to play against conventional offenses we see like Georgia and Bama. I don't think UGA covers the 15 point spread. In fact, I look for this game to be much more defensive than people are thinking. 24-17 type of game. Close. I don't think we will win, but we have beaten UGA before when no one thought we would.

You are using logic, which doesn't appear to be accepted these days.

Logic or supposition? As opposed to facts, which say that Derek Dooley has never beaten a ranked team... the next time will be the first. Enough with "improvement"... show me some wins over somebody that matters.

That wasn't the discussion under review.  Have a good day.

It goes to the very heart of the discussion.

Winning SEC ballgames is the bottom line, period.

I don't disagree with you guys, but there is a very good chance we go 4-4 in the SEC this year.

Which, whatever else you think, is massively better than 1-7 when the only win is in OT vs. Vandy, no?

Do you really think we should go from 5-7 and losing to vandy to 11-1 overnight?  Or even 9-3, which is what you wanted Revolver.

Maybe, if UF was as bad as you expected them to be.  But what if they win the East, or even come close to it?  Is 8-4 then acceptable? 

You didn't ask me but I think 8-4 would be acceptable! :powert:

If they don't beat anybody of note, I don't care.

I can't state it any more plainly. The man is 0-fer vs. ranked teams. I don't care what he started with, this is the year that progress has to show. Progress isn't about the press conference, it's about closing the deal on the field. I've said it since Kentucky last year. All the man has to do is beat somebody and I will back off. Until he does, every week that passes makes me think he's the wrong guy even more than I did the week before.

whatever.
I'n not into discussing biases.
When you are willing to discuss the team, as opposed to your emotional preconceived bias against the coaching staff we can continue. Till then there isn't much for us to discuss.

BTW, look at my posts from 3+ years ago.  I still haven't changed my position since then.

BOWL GAME! Don't talk to me about a bowl game!

And an 0fer record against ranked teams is affected by my bias how?

Yes, I'm biased against Dooley at this point because he's shown nothing, and the empirical (unbiased) evidence supports my stance.

I stood with you for a long time on Fulmer because Fulmer won. There was data to support the support of that coach. There is no data to support this coach. And it's amazing that you would talk about emotion and bias with me. You are just as emotionally charged and biased the opposite way. I wouldn't bring that up, I would only point to the truth, which is they have beaten nobody. I don't care what the lines do and what patterns the WRs run and how out of position the LBs are because I judge football by the sum of the parts. And the sum says, we are a below average program who ain't won shizzle against anybody since Kiffin beat UGa in 2009.

Let's just face it - this is not an attractive job at this point....we are going to have to throw the bank to somebody and then if they are a bust we are screwed.  I hate Mike Hamilton.

You seem to be more emotionally charged than anyone in this debate, imo.

Sure it is.  This wasn't an attractive job when Kiffin was hired, and it really wasn't an attractive job when Dooley was hired.  But now we have an SEC-caliber roster, just waiting for the right coach to give them some sense of direction.  We have the best facilities in America.  I believe the right hire can win at UT right away, and win BIG as soon as year two.

I respectfully disagree  :biggrin:  but I'm mad, emotional and sick of losing...and sick of winning by 21 points and still feelingike we lost.

Ok, nothing wrong with wanting to beat a ranked team.  MSU is ranked, which is why it's my "key game".   Of course, uga is ranked as well, but our odds with the second group of bulldogs is much better.

Still, I will be rooting for the Vols saturday and stranger things have happened.

Again, and we can agree to disagree, but we have "almost SEC-caliber talent".  I still think we need another year or two, and DD's recruiting classes have been good, but not great.

It is in fact much better than either of the previous two years though.

This is my problem with the "It's not Dooleys fault, or the were IMPROVING CRAP."  If we are still losing games like UF that we should have and could have won, how in the HELL IS STILL LOSING IMPROVING???  If you lose by 1 point you still lost and that is not improvement....................like we ran the ball better makes us an improved team.  We should be able to compete with the big boys now PERIOD DOT.  He had nothing to work with at LA Tech, but DAMN IT we have all that you need to build a winning program...................................................except a coach and staff that can motivate young men, and a game plan with which to out coach anyone............................................SEE AKRON'S OFFENSIVE STAFF VS OUR DEFENSIVE ONE.............................and it only gets tougher from here on in.  I hope i'm dead wrong, but I in no way see us keeping up with any of the next 4 games and maybe even Missouri.

Where is our teams kick their ASSES attitude??............................................WELL I GUESS THERE IS ALWAYS NEXT YEAR................LOL

 :powert:

So winning by 21 is good, right?   :nod:

Akron.   :wink:

This makes my point............................................... pulling ahead to a 21 point lead at the end of the game over a LAME DUCK 1-11 MAC TEAM.........THAT MOVED THE BALL ON US AT WILL EXCEPT FOR WHEN THEY MESSED UP.   :crazy:

When we were a good team we beat up on teams like this to the tune of 52-0.

 :powert:

Wasn't talking to you   :tongue:

 :dielaughing:

Actually we shut them down pretty well for most of the second half.  That did include a couple turnovers, but hell, they only scored a FG.  Even you have to be happy with that.

So, you really can't say "even a one-point loss" is bad against a good team, but not accept "even a one-point win" against a bad team.  Either a "win is a win" (to use your own words) or it isn't.  So which is it?

If you allow this kind of illogic to cloud your reasoning, you are likely to go through life confused and angry, because it will be impossible for you to be satisfied by anything.   :wink:

As a head coach a TN, win games over SEC opponents or get the fizzle out.  Bottom line.

The man is in his third year, and he hasn't done this once!  And he lost to Kentucky!

Who cares if the running game is getting better?  BEAT SOMEBODY!!!

Oh really?  Depending on when you think we were "good", check out these scores:

2007 UK 52-50 in triple OT - we only won because they missed a FG  :crazy:
2006 UK 17-12
2006 Air Force 31-30 (okay, AF is better than Akron, but we only beat them by one)

2000 @Memphis 19-17
2000 Vandy 28-26

Granted 2000 was a bit of a rebuilding year, but we had far more talent then than we do now

1999 Memphis 17-16 (on a late miracle throw by Tee Martin no less)

That's as far back as my records go, but we actually lost to Memphis in 1996, and we had some other close calls with Vandy and Kentucky in the 90s.

So it's not that unusual to ALMOST LOSE, or even LOSE to really bad teams, even when we were up.  So I will take this 21-point win, no matter how ugly, any day. 

I clearly think he will.  I guess we will find out.  And MSU IS ranked.   :nod:

Derek Dooley not having won 11 has little to do with how we will fare against Georgia....What I posted was facts, and the facts do indeed point to UGA being better, but the point was, don't judge UT based on what we did vs Akron, each game is case by case.

we can't. If we fired Dooley we'd have to give him a ton of money, and the AD isn't really doing well right now. Barring a disaster like last year he is here next year, so we might as well stop contributing to his hot seat rumors which don't help recruiting, and see what he can do.

What does MSU being ranked have to do with anything?

I was not talking to you. I was talking to Pirate who insinuated that my argument was not grounded in facts. I did not say that you or nobody else didn't post facts. I have not said one place on this board that I am judging UT vs. UGa by what happened vs. Akron. I hated the first half and the second happened because they ran out of gas, but that isn't representative of what will happen vs. UGa. Dooley not having won any out of 11 has everything to do with my expectation of what will happen vs. UGa. And playing close is not worth squat to me. It is time to win.

There are 10 donors who would pony up that money right now if they thought they could win a National Championship with the next coach like Bama did with Saban. Please.

For somebody who was fired up to fire a national championship coach at the first sign of trouble, I can't believe you're willing to "see what he can do". It's not his first year. Have we not already seen what he can do?

I misread your post to say "quality SEC opponent".  I guess any SEC game will do?

Rereading some earlier posts, I probably had you confused with the boss.

Big if though, but I think you know that.


Not yet, IMO, given extenuating circumstance.  But by late October or early November we will know much more.

(http://i49.tinypic.com/2wp10t4.jpg)

All of those teams you listed are better than AKRON....................................
YOU CAN TAKE AN UGLY WIN AND BE fine.........................I am not................I will be happy when we compete the way we should and win against good competition.  I am still just PISSED ABOUT THE UF GAME and am not happy to see the next 4 games coming.  The missed defensive assignments against a poor Akron team that UCF blew out of the stadium just give me little to no confidence against good teams.

 :powert:

Akron scored 14 on ucf so if u take away the 10 we spotted them with turnovers the score is pretty similar.
Most of those teams might be bettrt than akron but we also did not beat them by 21.

How badly did we beat gsu?  Were they better than akron and was it after a tough loss?

So....we are as good as UCF....lovely.  I was not raised to accept mediocrity....C's were not "ok".  Maybe our fanbase is spoiled, maybe we are sick of being a big fat joke and losing to teams like KENTUCKY.

You can accept what you want to or try to reason for a performance, I call it making excuses which to me is unacceptable
 :powert:

THIS IS HOW I SEE IT

 :powert:

It is where we are. 

But I actually think we are better than UCF.  In the year we lost to Memphis, several teams I would not consider better than us blew them off the field. So were we worse than those teams, some of whom we pounded in other games?  Or was it just a bad day?

My point is that we had a bad day and still won by 21, and it's not that big a deal.

I don't like mediocrity any more than you do.  But we weren't mediocre last year, we sucked ass.

So I see this as a progression 

suck ass -> mediocre -> good -> great

IMO, we started the year mediocre but can be good by the end, and perhaps good moving towards great next year.  That is a best case scenario

Another one is that we stay mediocre. 

Another is that we revert to sucking ass.

I think 8-4 qualifes as moving towards good, maybe even achieving it, depending on the details of what that 8-4 comprises.









in

i read that in the high pitched astonished Jim Mora voice: "playoffs? You kidding me?"

Well done.

 :thumbup:

Thank you....I thought no one caught that.  :wave:

Can't compare Fulmer and CDD. Fulmer was in his 11th year when I was ready to let him go because he had built it up, and was letting it slip. CDD inherited a mess, and I don't believe at all we can see all he can do his third year...plus, the season is too young to write him off yet.

Fulmer won a national championship. Dooley has never beaten a ranked team.

You're right.. No comparison at all.

Fulmer inherited a lot of talent. Tons more than Dooley did. He won a national title in his 7th season as UT head coach. Should we have fired him in 1994, his third season, when he started the season 1-3 and finished 8-4? If Dooley finished 8-4 this season, or 9-4, should we fire him? 8-5?

By 1994 Fulmer had a win over Florida and two wins over Georgia. Also 1994 was his second full season, not his third. In his third season he beat Alabama, Georgia, and Ohio State and went 11-1. Based on what Dooley inherited, I did not expect him to go 11-1 and beat Alabama this year.

I don't want Dooley fired today... he deserves the chance to let it play out, at least until November... I've just all but given up hope that he has a clue what is going on. If he beats anybody decent the rest of this year I reserve the right to change my stance. I just don't think it is going to happen. His teams are mentally weak.

How long does Dooley get a pass for the "mess" he walked into?  Is this the last year we have to hear it?  He is 3 years into his tenure and we still fold in the fourth quarter.  Last year the excuse was injuries....this year we're back to the mess he walked into.  It is time for him to take ownership and show some progress on the field...not paper and not the press conference...the field.

Fulmer also competed against the likes of Ray Goof, Donnan, and the revolving door at Bama. The one good coach in the SEC he had issues beating. And like I said, he didn't start off his career with a roster that resembled a probation team. So yes, still a bad comparison.

I agree that Dooley needs to beat someone in the SEC for people to take UT seriously. If he doesn't, he is going to go 2-6 this year in the SEC, and I think we have better talent on this team to do that. haven't given up on this team being mentally weak yet.

last year the excuse wasn't injuries. It was lack of depth...and it was a fact, not an excuse. he has a team that can be competitive this year, and should be, but we're not there yet. He should have 3-4 years of his players before we judge. he is not three years into his tenure yet. 2 1/4 years. Heck, you were ready to give Fulmer a pass after 2008, and that was how many years into his tenure?

Fulmer won a national championship, man.

This is why I hate it when Tennessee is bad. It's worse than politics.

He won a NC 10 years before 2008 and let his team slip into mediocrity, and recruiting slip into the wasteland. Point is, 10 years was way too long. 2 1/4 seasons is too quick to judge. Like someone said, the jury is out on Dooley - and the judge doesn't pass judgement until the jury comes back in with a verdict, no matter the opinions of either side.

Yes, I was....and as Revolver said Fulmer had a NC under his belt. What does Dooley have other than an impressive wardrobe and a loss to Kentucky?  I happen to want Dooley to succeed and prove me wrong....I just don't think he will.  

This is a convenient excuse for bashing even Fulmer's successful years, but let's look at it a different way. Does thinking about UGA's two stupid hires and Alabama's revolving door of coaches remind anyone of a certain program? Have you given any thought right now to the fact that we may be this decade's version of mid 90s UGA, and that we're on our way to being the revolving door of stupid hires that Alabama was from '97 to 2006?

BTW, those UGA and Alabama teams with those crappy coaches that Fulmer beat up on . . . they won bowl games, beat ranked teams, and defeated rivals on occasion.

I've tried to avoid all of this crap because it's incredibly depressing. I like Dooley and have wanted to believe in him very badly. But if the rest of this season goes as it appears to be headed, forget it. If we lose to Georgia and Alabama and South Carolina, I'm done with Dooley . . . and at this point there's no reason to think we can win any of those games.

Well I am saying nothing more than you are. Let the season play out, then either be done or jump on. Right now it's premature. IMO he needs to win 1 out of these 4. The three teams you mentioned have much more talent and depth than we do, so he will have to outcoach one of them to go 2-2

I think we can take USC, and I am hopeful that we go 2-2 over this four game stretch.  But we have to worry about MSU.  Good team on the road. 

If we can't win that one, forget the rest.

My biggest problem is that we have not outcoached anyone with Dooley at the helm, or beaten any team that even margianlly better than us.  We should have seen that at least once or twice last year.......................................or once or twice in his 2 full years............................he needs to step his GAME DAY PLAN UP IN A MAJOR WAY..................................CAUSE IT AIN'T BEEN CLOSE TO GOOD ENOUGH.

 :powert:

My biggest issue was Mike Hamilton was AD for so long

Word.

Exactly!  Time and time again, you can see that Hamilton, while a great fundrasier, knew nothing about hiring a coach.  He screwed up when he fired Fulmer without having a replacement hire in his back pocket.

I am of the camp that says wait for the year to play out, but I am also in the camp of Dooley has to beat someone with a pulse.  With that said, assuming we are in the market for a new coach, I have greater hope in the coaching search with Hart at the helm since he was at FSU and Bama and knows what it takes to be successful in football.