VTTW Board Index

is a difference in spanking and abusing. Some people feel it is wrong to spank at any time. I don't. I feel Peterson abused his kid however. He went over the line. If you don't want to spank your kid don't. Don't tell me how to discipline mine. Spanking is not abusing necessarily. Sorry if this is too political. Cowherd said it was cultural in the south. That people in the east do not spank kids. I call BS.

And your BS would be right.  That is a blanket statement that I don't think he can back up.  He is probably saying that based on the people that he knows, not the population as a whole.  I'm also getting sick and tired of hearing that certain bad behavior is a southern cultural thing (has he ever spent any time in the south?).  I heard it with the dog fighting mess and now the Perterson mess (there was another mess that was also claimed to be a southern thing, but that would get too political).  I was raised in the south and never held, saw, or heard of dog fights growing up.  I also never abused my children (although I occasionally spanked them).  Maybe I'm just the southern exception.

Does "southern thing" = "black thing"? Which cowherd won't say for obvious reasons. 

Dog fighting is a cultural thing imo. Spanking is not. I grew up in the Midwest and got my ass beat plenty. Lol

It's human nature to stereotype and pigeonhole. Makes us feel better when things fit into convenient little categories. Cowherd says it's a Southern thing. Charles Barkley says it's a "black" thing. We all know that neither one is true.

What irritates me about the Peterson issue is that everyone wants to take sides. There seems to be no middle ground; just the extremes...either beating your kid is your prerogative as a parent and no one should intervene, or you should go to jail if you spank your kid. Why can't there be an agreement that spanking is okay, but Peterson went too far? I took a lot of whippings as a child -- from my mom and dad, and also from my teachers and principal. And a lot of them were with a switch (or a "tree branch" if your employer is one of the cable news networks). But I never took a whipping like that kid took, and  took a couple of whippings that I would never dream of doling out on my own kids.

My personal opinion is that leaving cuts on a kid is abuse. And four years old is too young for a whipping with a switch, ever.

My take is: Violence isn't the answer to discipline kids. In fact, in general, violence isn't the answer.

Peterson seems to have a problem - he's a 6'1 230 lb grown man beating a 4 year old with a switch. What he did is abuse. I don't take issue with a spanking on the butt, but I never do or did  it to my kids because I feel there are much better methods. It seems to have worked for us so far.

This

Nike stores in MN are pulling AP mechandise frome their shelves.  Which brings the best line of the day: If Nike's mad at you for the way you treat children you know you've really crossed the line.

But as to my opinion, I believe in spanking but leaving marks is definitely abuse. 

Spare the rod and spoil the child, I asways say.  I got a switch used on me plenty growing up, and i deserved it and strived not to make the same mistake twice.  I dont switch my kids but would if they needed it.   I turned out fine.  I got no problem with spanking, the problem I have with the Peterson incident is I think the child was too young to have that strong a spanking or switching.  I was a holy terror until the switch came out!  My granny used a yard stick, it didnt hurt at all, and didnt stop me from misbehaving, but the privit switch worked. 

Yeah...that is bad

My mother never had to spank me. But she did have a tone and level of voice and a look that made you want to jump off a cliff rather than take the lecture. I got "The Look" a lot growing up, because I was head-strong and opinionated. My wife asked her once had I always been this way. Mom replied "Well, he always was a might ornery." Looking back, I am surprised she did not beat me. Look up ornery and all the synonyms and that was me as a child.

Spanking a child is acceptable only if you need to and only if it does not result in abuse. If you abuse a child (even your own), you should be subject to arrest and punishment. Disciplining a child takes patience.

I have been expressing that i also think spanking is okay but that it should be done in moderation.  The child should not be physically hurt and his kid clearly was.

So I am taking the middle ground...he has a right to spank his child, but not with excessive force.  He went too far.  That does not make him a hardened criminal, but he should definitley not repeat the behavior.

I have no idea how the courts treat these matters, but if I was the judge a stiff fine and loss of visitation rights for an extended period would seem appropriate, as well as required counseling (which he is already doing perhaps).

I spanked very sparingly when my kids were growing up, but never used a switch.   The pictures I saw, which said they were 4 days after the whipping, was WAY too far.   Getting a spanking with a switch is one thing, getting a beating with marks all over his body with a switch is child abuse....sorry, but he went too far with it.

Now my momma, with 3 boys and 1 girl, used a dang belt!  Ouch!

Legs, arms, backs, and scrotums are not for punishment.   Butts are for punishment.  Punishment does not include cuts and bruises.  Cuts and bruises constitute abuse.  Just my opinion.

Agree 100%

My problem with the whole situation is that there are thousands of kids abused everyday. Where is the outrage on a daily basis for them? Just because AP is rich and famous he gets his case plastered all over the news. Where is the outrage on daily basis for the kids abused by non-famous parents/people. Same with domestic violence. Where is the outrage for all the women who get abused daily by their men.

Are you serious ? There is outrage every day over them. There are organizations all over the world trying to prevent child abuse. Peterson is a high profile NFL guy, of course his story will get attention.

 

In my opinion, the Nike action is likely more an issue of wanting to stay on the "politically correct" side of the issue.  I could be wrong, though.

As for a switching now and again, I will have to agree with Hollerboy.  I got plenty of "switchin's", and more than one of em left their marks.  None of them ever did me any lasting damage, and they all probably helped make me a better individual.  They worked because they made me respect my mother/father's rules.  Or fear them (to me, its potAto/potato).

I would have rather been whipped three times with a belt than once with a switch.  The belt didn't work for me.

I tell people that my mother had an "all-herbal" cure for ADHD.  She cured mine with a good old-fashioned switch.

So nike rightfully thinks it's wrong to strike a child.  But apparently working a child for 20 hours a day at 12 cents an hour is A-OK. :frown:

We've all had different experiences that shape our views on this, but I don't think the two things you said are potayto/potahto at all. Fear and respect are two completely different concepts, and fear is never requisite and rarely helpful in a parent/child relationship, IMO. I think fearing one's parents is a pretty unhealthy thing, actually.

JMO.

Agree to disagree.  Proverbs tells us that "He that spareth his rod hateth his son."  While religion is probably for another forum, it is the basis for my beliefs.

I can tell you this, nobody loves their parents more than I love mine.  They definitely did not spare the rod with me, and I definitely feared the consequences (I suppose I could have stated my original post differently).  I did fear them so far as what would happen when I got out of line.  That did not, in any way, affect the love that I had/have for them. 

Of course, they never spanked me out of anger.  It was always done out of love.  I believe this.  They always sat me down and explained to me what I had done that warranted the punishment before administering it.  I didn't like it, but I understood it.  At the time, I was not of the mind that it was helpful to me, but looking back now I see that their discipline is what helped make me into a responsible adult.

I respect your view.  I am not attempting to be argumentative.  I am just expressing my view of things, and as you said, we all have different experiences that shaped us.

I know what my parents did to me for punishment, and how I punished our kids.
I did get a switch on my legs in the first grade.  It hurt , and stung, did leave small redness
For a few minutes.  But  I learned I didn't want it again.  When I was told to not do something
I didn't.
My four got spanked and are wonderful adults.  Would they have learned by me talking to them?  
I doubt it.  A famous man once said, " It never hurts to give a child a pat on the back occasionally
As long as it's low enough and hard enough".  

 :moon:

Same. One of the silver linings to bad things like this being in the news is that people like you and me get to hash it out and maybe understand the world and the rest of the people who inhabit it just a little better as a result.

you sure are opinionated. I've beaten the crap out of my kids a time or two, and I would say they have turned out to be some of the best men to walk the earth. But what do I know.....

It's them furriners that's tryin' to sneak into our country and impose Sharia law and blow everthin' up, so who gives a shizzle?   :naughty:

Of course I am opinionated. That's mostly what we do here on these boards, discuss, give opinions, etc. Is that ok?

As for your statement, I'll take your word for it, but it doesn't sound like A Peterson getting beat by his folks helped him become such a great guy?  It's all statistics, I guess, some will turn out fine, many won't.

Here's the thing. If I went out, found some four year old and beat him with a switch, I'd be arrested for assault of a child and child abuse. People would hate me and I'd get a jail sentence. So why is it ok to do the same if it's your four year old? Abuse is abuse.

I've never hit my children beyond an occasional light slap on the butt. I believe there's a line between discipline and abuse. For my kids, other methods work much better.

False equivalency.

How so? Abuse is abuse, whether I do it to my child or someone else's. Both are illegal, wrong, and should be.

If I took money out of your bank account to pay off my house, it would be a crime.  So why is it OK for me to take money out of my account to do the same thing?  A crime is a crime?

Maybe not the greatest analogy, but you get my drift?

The difference is that I am responsible for discipline where my child is concerned.  You are not.  You have no right to discipline my child (unless you have been legally appointed to do so).

Now, I will be the first to admit that corporal punishment can be criminal if not administered in the right way and for the right reasons.  There are those who abuse this.  I will add, though, that almost anything can be made into something negative if not used, administered, or handled correctly.

My dad, in my lifetime, has done MANY wonderful things for me.  He continues, through my mother, to do for me even today (he can't directly because he has dimentia).

He paid for my college education, he helped me buy my first car, he fed me, he clothed me, he taught me right from wrong.  So many wonderful things he taught me.

The best thing he ever did for me, though, was to 'wear me out' (spank my behind) for making a C in science when I was a sixth grader.  He also grounded me in addition to the spanking.  That spanking was the best thing he ever gave me.  You see, education was not important to me (it didn't involve a girl or a ball and so I wasn't that interested in it).  I would have been happy with C's - heck, I would have been OK with D's.

With that spanking, however, he taught me that only my best was good enough.  He knew that education was important, and he made it important to me.  He taught me that anything less than my best was not good enough.  I didn't make any more C's.  I got a great education, not because I really cared about it, but because I had to in order to satisfy my parents.  I was young and was not intelligent enough to know that education was important.

I was able to go to college and get a degree in electrical engineering because of that spanking.  If not for that, I would most likely have ended up working in the coal mines of southern West Virginia (where I was born and raised).  Had he let me get by with that first C, I would have tested the waters by making a couple of C's.  If a couple of C's had been allowed, I would have tried D's to see if they would fly.  Pretty soon, I would have been making all C's and D's (and I would have been perfectly OK with that).

Throughout my childhood I received many spankings, switchin's.  Many of them were very hurtful, at least in the short term.  Even though some were hurtful (and some of them even left a bruise, a stripe on the legs, etc) NONE of them were ever abusive.  Each and every one of them was helpful.  I am blessed to have received them!

What? That's a terrible analogy man. No I don't get your drift. You taking your own money out isn't a crime. You abusing your kid is. Sure you are responsible for your child's discipline, but you can't abuse him, that is a crime. So the question is, do you consider a grown ass 230 lb man beating a 4 year old with a switch so much that it bleeds and leaves marks abuse ? We're not talking about a slap on the butt here. Doesn't matter if it's his dad...it's abuse.

No, not really

No not really what?

I guess its a terrible analogy to you because you disagree with it.  I think it is a pretty good parallel, because I don't abuse my child when I spank him.

If you had bothered to read my entire post above you would have seen this:
"Now, I will be the first to admit that corporal punishment can be criminal if not administered in the right way and for the right reasons.  There are those who abuse this.  I will add, though, that almost anything can be made into something negative if not used, administered, or handled correctly."

Actually, you probably did read that.  You probably ignored that part of the post because it didn't fit into your rebuttal, I guess.  

Well, let's be fair: Volznut's comparison is pretty terrible too. What's the difference between me spanking my own child and someone else doing it? Um...how about THE LAW?

In Tennessee, the statute is pretty clear — any injuries beyond temporary redness (cuts, bruises, etc.) could be considered child abuse and warrant an investigation by the Department of Children's Services. Short of that, corporal punishment is okay. In Tennessee, if you hit a stranger's child, you'll be arrested and charged with felony child abuse.

I don't see why we're even having this conversation. To Volznut, you may be abusing your child if you spank them but, fortunately and thankfully, the law disagrees with him.

I was going to go with "Why is not ok for me to sleep with your wife but ok for me to sleep with mine"

Yours was probably better

Again, I clearly am talking about using a switch on a 4 year old, NOT spanking. There is a big difference

10EC, that's funny because I actually had the same thought originally.  I actually started typing that and stopped mid-sentence.   :smile:

I read the whole thing. It isn't about what I agree with. You made a comparison of a legal act (taking out your own money) to an illegal one (abusing your kid) and made them out to be the same. I didn't make that up. I hate to repeat, but I am talking about abuse. I am not talking about you spanking your kid, I am talking about A Peterson hitting his kid so gard with a switch that is caused this :

(http://static.ijreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/abuse.jpg)

I got '"switchin's" as a 4 year old child.  Probably even as a 2 or 3 year old, though I can't remember that far back.  None were abusive or criminal.  They were given out of love.

I don't see it as criminal if done correctly.  I used a switch on my son when he was that old and I didn't abuse him.

There are folks who probably think it was abusive, and some of those probably see my actions as criminal.  I disagree with them.

Its all in how its administered, imo.

It is not illegal to discipline your child through the use of corporal punishment.  Even with a switch.

Do I think using a switch could be abusive?  Yes.   Do I think using a belt/ruler/razor strap/paddle could be abusive?  Yes.

Are they always abusive?  No, not in my opinion.

Could a scolding be abusive?  Yes.

I actually agreed with you, to a degree, in the earlier post with the analogy.

Do I think Peterson went too far?  Yes. 

I will say this: I have had marks similar to that from switchings.  I don't think I every actually bled from one of mom's switchings, though, and I know my wife nor I ever made our son bleed. 

To me, the number of lashings he has is even more a factor in it being abusive than is the small amount of blood.  It would appear that this child was struck more than 10 times.

I never gave, nor received, more than 3 lashings at a time (at least I can't remember ever getting more than that).  A little goes a long way!

jeffco, I think the crux of it is this.... it's a generational thing. 30 years ago, for the most part, people who were raising kids at the time had no issue with corporal punishment, so they look at the AP case and shrug. Now, for the most part, parents with small kids have issues with it. So, things, laws, and perceptions have changed. That's usually the norm. People who have kids at the time are going to be making the rules about it, and they should.

Volznut, I do not disagree with that.  Perceptions change, they are indeed shaped by the times.  I would guess that members of younger generations, in general, are less likely to use corporal punishment.  Whether that is right or wrong is an individual thing.

I will say that, as a member of one of the older generations, it looks like Peterson crossed the line.  That doesn't mean that I think using a switch, or using corporal punishment are necessarily criminal.

Gotcha