VTTW Board Index

All programs have guys enter and leave. No biggie. But with Bruce's exit, Butch's incessant discussion of alpha males, and interesting personnel decisions, I have to wonder if he plays favorites.Plenty of people are super cool to some people, and jerks to others, or an odd combination. 

It's hard to know unless you're around someone a lot, but there seem to be tell-tale signs. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Sometimes things just don't work out.  Is Butch an alpha dog?  Absolutely, or he wouldn't be a good coach IMO.  I wouldn't read too much into it.

I have a guy that works for me.  Hired him awhile back but shortly thereafter realized that while he was a good engineer he didn't fit the team very well, at all.  Best news I received this week is that he has a contingency offer to go elsewhere within the company.  While he hinted at a possible counter from our end that will not happen (for a variety of reasons).  If the offer comes through I'll wish him well.

Has to be more to the story on this....He wanted to be a Vol and even offered to be a blueshirt to open up more room. Has to be more.

He got processed to open up room for the kid that didn't get into Wisconsin.

This is the same way Saban does it. Y'all worrywarts wanna win or not?

I'll jump in with both feet. If that's an accurate reflection of what happened, it's disgusting. I realize it's the new way in college football, but I hate the win-at-all-costs mentality that has slowly surfaced over the last couple of decades. I don't like it, regardless of whether it's Saban doing it or Butch doing it. I suppose it is what it is, but things like this and high ticket prices will ultimately drive me away from college football, I figure. (I fully realize college football isn't going to miss me when I'm gone, but I can still gripe about it.  :biggrin: )

Have to disagree with you, my friend.

Joc was going to play at UT and play early.  He was going to get a legit shot to be a special teams guy from day one.  And that's first party info, not third or fourth party rumor.

Joc screwed up.  He blew a golden opportunity and now either has to prove he has what it takes to make it, or prove his critics correct. 

Looks like he may well end up at Arkansas State at this point.  He is a qualifier and doesn't have to go the juco route unless he wants to try to get back to the power 5 level. 

According to the KNS article Saturday, Joc tweeted he got suspended for being late to class and not for grades. IMO it must not have been for a single or isolated incident. So he decided to go elsewhere after talking to coaches.  Having the discipline to be on time to class (even one to dislike or love) is very important to this staff. Unless Joc tells more, we will never know the true reason. But he is now gone, so it is time to close that chapter and move on. Speculation aside, it was obviously not meet to be so why dwell on things no one has information on. It just did not work out.

He was never going to be more than a special teamer. If he was going to be more than that, you wouldn't have typed the last 13 words you typed because a power 5 school would be all over him. First hand info that he was going to play on teams does not make my post inaccurate.

Butch took him too early and didn't want to rescind his offer because he was a local prospect... bad PR. If he was actually a good player, it wouldn't matter what he did, he wouldn't be off the team. Justin Martin told Butch that he'd better shut his fizzleing mouth this past week... still on the team because the guy can play.

Joc Bruce... late to class in his first term... gone.

Jalen Hurd... cited underage drinking during the season... still on the team.

Charles Mosely... DUI / weed... still on the team.

Pig Howard... weed, insolence, bad teammate for the whole first year Butch was at UT... still on the team.

The only players this staff have gotten rid of are ones who are a) academically ineligible b) Domestic issues and c) facing felony criminal charges. This is the way of bigtime college football.

Yeah the only thing I can say to this is maybe you should stick to fishing lol. The fans drive the win at all costs mentality because winning breeds ticket sales and merchandise sales. Money breeds higher coaches salaries and higher expectations. Coaches are under immense pressure to win to keep their jobs. Either Butch uses times like these to make tough, unfair decisions to get better players, or he ultimately gets fired based on the expectations of fans who want to win but at the same time somehow expect them to "do the right thing".

All due respect, Jeff, I have been pretty danged close to this one for the last year and a half.  I was the play by play guy for South-Doyle last season and have been around Joc a lot - and had many conversations with him - during that time.  His coach, of course, was Clark Duncan, who coached my son at Powell and has been a good friend for about 15 years now.  

Never said that your post wasn't valid, but Joc was going to play this year - and especially being a special teams guy, but not limited to that.  Special teams was going to get him on the field first, but with the need at WR he likely would have gotten some time there, too.  

There is an assumption that he hasn't gotten "power 5" attention, which is just not accurate.  Clark got tons of "power 5" inquiries during the season, but Joc told them that he was done after UT offered and he verbaled and he wasn't interested.  UT was his Holy Grail, which is one of the reasons why I am so baffled by the recent happenings.  

Sometimes kids just screw up and end up having to go down a level or two.  We've all seen it happen.  I believe this to be one of those times.  

  

Obviously there is more to it than that, Jeff.  Butch isn't going to run a kid for something as simple as that. 

If he got tons of power 5 attention, why is he going to go to Arkansas State? The kid from Wisconsin that they are clearing space for has interest from every SEC school, the Pac 10, the Big 10, etc. That kid wasn't academically accepted to Wisconsin. Similar situation, no?

You can name all the connections you want, the fact that the schools showing interest are the Ak States, Memphis's, and NE Oklahoma A&M's of the world speaks volumes to his prospects as a D1 athlete. I'll continue to believe what I believe.

Funny that everything else that happens in that locker room hits Twitter in 2 hours but there is literally nothing about anything else regarding Joc Bruce.

No.  The two situations are absolutely nothing alike one another. 

Based on the public information, they both look like minor academic problems to me. Except one is a high major running back and the other is a mid major slot receiver.

Who said something happened in the locker room?  

And sometimes all information isn't "public" to be spread on social media. 

And we all know that Twitter and other social media is always accurate, don't we? 

It was a euphemism... "behind close doors"... "in the room"... etc. Let's not split hairs or play semantics.

Not my intention.  The point is that in most situations there is a Paul Harvey involved, and this one is no different. 

Question: Why would Butch go ahead and bring Joc in during the summer if he didn't think he was going to be able to help the team?  Even as a blue shirt he has to count towards a scholly for next year, and now his leaving will affect the APR.  Why bring him in during summer instead of waiting until fall or encouraging a grayshirt if he thought he was going to be a "candidate" to be run off?

That just doesn't make sense. 

You're a nice guy, Bill, but if you know something and don't want to post what you know, you shouldn't participate in these threads and drop hints.

It is virtually impossible for UT to keep things quiet, so eventually all information is spread on social media. Nobody is saying social media is always accurate. However it's extremely easy and very common sensical to see through what is true and what isn't when it comes to social media. I guarantee you if there was more to this than something really minor, it would be out there... maybe amidst a bunch of other BS, but the info would be out there. What's out there is that he was late for class and that only mid major schools and JUCOs are interested.

Easy answer... because there wasn't a coveted running back prospect out there that he really thought he could get. APR isn't a concern because they are managing it on the whole.

Again - using reason and common sense, which you have plenty of - why would Butch bring Joc in, and then get rid of him over such an alleged minor thing?  And especially when you consider that his high school coach is a prominent and influential long time high school coach and administrator AND has been one of Butch's biggest supporters during Butch's career thus far at UT? 

It just doesn't make sense that Butch would run Joc off over something as relatively insignificant and fixable as being late to class. 

I answered that already.

I have scratched my itch to argue for today. I'll be back for more soon.  :dance:

OK, if you say so, but I don't see an answer to my question anywhere.  With or without Joc there would have been an opportunity to bring the kid from Wisconsin in.  The Wisconsin reject has nothing to do with Joc's situation. 

Where does it stop, though? College sports are generally being destroyed from the inside out -- very little at a time -- by money and winning percentages. And it isn't just issues like these. Saban might've advanced us down the slippery slope but he didn't start the ball rolling. Everyone in the world was outraged when the Sandusky scandal emerged at Penn State, but we all know that today's Penn State could very easily be tomorrow's Notre Dame or LSU. Florida fans feigned disgust when Winston slid at FSU, but they know that their school could just as easily wind up in those same shoes -- heck, it already had; it's just that Hernandez's charges were less serious than rape. When you boil right down to it, the driving factors behind the Sandusky and Winston cover-ups are the same as the factors behind "encouraging" a kid to leave after he committed to you and even agreed to blueshirt.

That's pretty much where I stand, too. 

Having been aware of how that entire blue shirting thing was presented by Butch, and Butch did ask Joc to blue shirt and help with the scholly numbers, if he did "run off" Joc over something simple and correctable like being late for class then it would make me wonder about some things with our coaching staff and our approach to offering and committing prospects.  But like I said, that's just not reasonable nor rational to believe is the case.  The fact that others have "survived" more serious issues leads one to believe that there is more to the story here than just being late for class.  Since it seems to be all about recruiting now, other schools would exploit the situation if that's all that there was to it.

Again, just doesn't pass the smell test. 

I don't know Joc, but the fact he took a blue shirt was huge. If the coaching staff doesn't do everything they can for him (don't know they haven't) , they're lousy human beings.

That's what I care about. Treat him like you would a 4* legacy. I have no respect for those who play favorites. Again, I don't know what happened, but hopefully no 45 year-old adult made an 18 year-old kid's life difficult. Us old guys are supposed to serve.

It does seem odd that Butch would not keep a blue shirt, for whatever reason.  :confused:

What harm if it's not against the schollie cap.  Butch didn't need to run him off for numbers, which is what is implied above. 

Unless it's the 85 total limit.   :dunno:

Regardless a South Doyle kid should be kept.   :biggrin:

Okay I brushed up on blue shirts...it means he was given a schollie against next year's allotment, so there was something at stake.

It wasn't for the kid from Wisconsin though, because he isn't going to UT.

It may have been in Butch's interest to do it to make more room for next year's class.

There are rumors out there about the "more to it", but who knows.

Next year's class is the best ever in TN.  It would make sense to save as many schollies as possible for 2017.   I don't know if that is what happened in Bruce's case, but it would make sense.

It is about getting the best players on the field. If you know this guy is never going to contribute, get rid of him. Make these spoiled high school players earn their scholarships. Not good enough, you are gone. We don't recruit guys for special teams. If you are not in the starting 22 then you might make special teams. If you are an iffy special teams player, you are gone.

So, you are saying that if a player can't contribute other than on special teams as a true freshman, then you run him off? 

I read his post as employing a healthy dose of sarcasm, but perhaps I misread his intent. 

I certainly hope you are correct on that one, TRO. 

Maybe read a little closer? 😉

Nope, read it really closely.  Just didn't pass the smell test. 

In any event, the reason for the departure was more than just being late for a few classes, so it is irrelevant at this point. 

I was being sarcastic. If you go to the trouble to give the guy a scholly and you know he is never going to be a starter or even contribute then you shouldn't pull the scholly. Only 22 starters. That means a lot of players will be on the bench. My problem is why offer a kid a scholly that you know is a borderline Div 1 college player. It doesn't make sense in this day and age of win, win, win.

Yeah it was about being late for a few classes AND him not being a high major player. Not sure why you're having trouble following that.

Looks like butch has gitshirted Kyle Oliver today too. Already making room for the 2016 class. I like it!

Did you just compare the Sandusky cover up to a coach parting ways with a kid who can't play at the sec level?

I mean... Lol

I can't even jokingly argue with a person who draws that comparison

I know you're smart enough to have better reading comprehension than that. I said they're both symptoms of the same win-at-all-costs mentality. I mean, lung cancer and bad breath are both symptoms of smoking, but I doubt anyone would call that a comparison.

Laugh at that if you want, but your insulting tone is only because you can't debate the fact.

This is extremely naive. And also, if the kid wants to play, releasing him from a place where he won't to go to a place where he will helps the kid accomplish that dream. It's not like Butch is keeping him from college or from playing.

I'm convinced most Tennessee fans would love to take 22 Knoxville kids every year. It's a good thing we have coaches who understand what has to happen.

Oh I can debate the whole post but you're dead wrong about those two things being symptoms of the same thing. Penn state wasnt even winning, they were worshipping a dried up cult of personality. If you want to feel insulted, be my guest. It's an outrageous comparison that ruined an otherwise insightful post.

I'm sorry. Maybe it's my reading comprehension skills that need work. Because I sure as hell missed the insightfulness you brought to the table. I'll go reread.

Wait. Did you say Penn State wasn't winning? From 1993 (when the Sandusky indictments kicked in) until 2010, PSU won 71% of their games, with 7 seasons of 10+ wins, 7 more seasons where they missed 10 wins by just one game, and 10 bowl wins. How many teams had more wins during the same span? Not many.

And I suppose next you'll say that the Winston cover-up at FSU had nothing to do with winning?

See you keep making good points and clouding it with dumb things. There is a reason why I didn't take issue with what you said about Winston.

Ok so Penn state was winning more than I gave them credit for. I still disagree with you. That wasn't about players. Not the same thing. Again a cult of personality who believed he was above reporting something. Completely different and for you to connect these two examples is ludicrous.

I was calling your post insightful other than throwing that odd connection in there.

Check your blood pressure bud. You seem upset.

LOL. See, it is my reading comprehension that needs work, because I thought it said insightful thread instead of insightful post.

However, my blood pressure is fine. I don't get upset when argumentative people disagree with me. I just lob it right back.

Enough said. #ArguingForTheSakeOfArguing

Well it's not all arguing for the sake of arguing. I do think you're wrong. But, this place needs some excitement. ;)

Who the heck nominated you to be the boss man????



oh wait ... :doh:

Hockey sucks.

This :evillaugh:

It was you all along  :naughty:

I'll say it.  The "other thing" is that Joc supposedly got into a fight with one of the other players over tradition, blah blah blah.   It was as HTK says "more than one thing" and the "one thing" was more than talent.

I'm sure most of you already have read that on other boards and blogs so I doubt it's news. It's also second hand and might not be true.

Now, if Joc Bruce was Jalen Hurd, would he still be on the team in spite of everything?  Who knows.  But HTK likely is correct that it was more than classes.  Had it just been the classes he would still be there regardless of talent level.

It sounds pretty heartless and pretty cutthroat, but if you are a player who is

1) playing for a coach working on an all-out overhaul of his roster, and

2) at the bottom of a large, talented recruiting class

then it should go without saying that you don't want to do things to give the coaches a reason to show you the door. It sounds like Bruce did a couple of those things, and so did Kyle Oliver.

yep

That, or you and Revolver are just long-lost brothers.  :laugh:

He stepped on the T, was called out by Croom, took issue with the correction and "leadership" was applied :naughty:

There were several other factors, that Herb was alluding to but in the end reality did not match the dream.  It happens.

WOW! This was a surprisingly long thread.

Hockey is a more exciting sport than nfl football

Process'd

You are entitled to your beliefs, as misguided as they are  :nod: