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Not into hypotheticals

No, I never thought Les was a good coach, affable yes but not a good coach.           :patriot:

NO. LSU can recruit a top 10 class on a tank of gas and Lester never had a offense worth a darn with all that talent.

Les would only be an available option if he brings an accomplished OC with him on day 1, no promissory notes

Frankly, if Butch were to leave, for any reason, then the same goes.  If we hired a defensive minded coach he needs to identify his OC as part of the process and vice versa.
For whatever reason he was let go Jancek's defenses were a schematic disaster IMO.

No. Miles did less with more talent. He won with Saban's leftovers.

Les Miles went 11-2 in 2010 and 13-1 in 2011. I don't think it's fair to say that he only won with Saban's leftovers, but I do think he largely won based on talent alone. He likely can't recruit good enough to have as much talent in Knoxville as he had in Baton Rouge, so I'm not sure he could replicate the success he had there.

I wouldn't take him over Butch Jones, because I think it would just be a matter of time until we were playing this same game again. But if I were making a new hire and it was based on Butch vs. Miles, I'd take Miles in a heartbeat.

Agree with Creek.  

Miles would be a short term upgrade, but long term neither of them are really the answer.  

To expand on the question, I would take Brian Kelly right now over Butch.  And he's likely going to be available sooner rather than later.  

Most talking heads I've heard say Kelly will be at ND next year unless he leaves on his won. They were saying that last season he was 1 win away from being in the 4 team playoffs and he won't be fired this year.

Well, I'm one of the few left who's not ready to fire Butch.  He gets one more make or break year from me, with "make" meaning 10 wins or better. 

But if we WERE looking for a coach right now, I'd take Miles.  He's not the greatest tactition who ever lived, but he recruits well, he seems to attract quality assistants, and he might be the luckiest SOB to ever wear a headset.  And God knows we can use some of that. :dunno:

Unless something is going on in backchannels that we don't know about, Butch isn't going to get fired.  The buyout is just way too prohibitive right now. 

But I believe with 100% certainty that he is looking for a realistic way out.  He's just not a very good fit for this program, either in his football philosophy or his personality. 

No ... If you could dump Smart for Les would you do it?

Butch would be under huge pressure to win next year, more than this year. He may explode, and his team would play tight.

But 2-3 years ago he was a good fit. He said all the right things....he used the right clichés....he was recruiting well. Most fans and former players bought in 100%. It's a wins business...it's a improve business. Butch lost me quite a bit after the Florida game last year. I was mad as heck after the OU game but that was the 2nd game of the season and a lot of time to makeup for it.....NO excuse for the Florida cluster. I didn't feel good about the Ark game all season because I knew with those massive offensive lineman they would wear us down...and they did. Then move to this year and the slow starts from the first game....the prayer wins against App. State and a bad UGA team. Getting down big in several games....not being prepared....having  two 5 stars leave in the middle of the season....Been too much bad data this year. Something is wrong, something is missing in this program. I understand the injuries we had.... way more than our share....never seen anything like it. Most knew going into the season we were very thin at linebackers and DT's...then guess what, we lost the bulk of them. Injuries can't be dismissed in all this mess of a season.

I'm not for firing just to be firing.....that's gotten us into problems in the past. I saw a list of potential head coaches for the Oregon job on ESPN 2 days ago....Can't say I really saw a WOW hire in the bunch. We don't want to make a hire without a AD in place...I sure as heck don't want a lame duck chancellor and a lame duck AD in the hiring process. Period, Dot. IMO Butch is over his head....the brick by brick and clichés are out the window...it was put up or shut up time this season and for various reasons Butch was shut up this season and not sure he knows what to do? If he's a lame duck coach what topnotch assts. will come here knowing it might be one and done for them?....Much like what happened to Dooley going into his last season. We need upgrades in several spots but not sure in the current climate we can get them here. I see 2 things to most likely happen going into next season...We have a poor season and Butch loses what's left of his support and he's fired.....also, if we have a pretty good season with 9-10 wins he'll get out while the iron is hot. I'll be shocked if he's here after 2017.

I agree

My big concern right now is this: Whether you're on the Fire Butch bandwagon or you support him 100%, I think we can all agree that staff upgrades are an absolute must. I absolutely believe, based on things people are saying, that Butch wants out. He likely isn't going to get out, because no one is going to hire him. So he's probably going to be our coach, but his heart probably isn't going to be in it. Because even if he meets/exceeds expectations in 2017 and his stock goes up, he'll still get out. Recruiting is going to suffer. The 2016 class was just average, and the 2017 class could wind up being disastrous if we aren't careful. And will Butch be willing to aggressively pursue quality coaching candidates if he really has already checked out? Even if he is willing to go find better coaches, will they come? As TnPhil alluded to, it isn't always easy to hire when everyone is convinced you're on the hot seat. No one wants to remove themselves from a secure job and wind up unemployed in one year. Remember in 2008 when the only offensive coordinator Phil Fulmer could find was Dave Clawson**? Or in 2012 when the only defensive coordinator Derek Dooley could find was Sal Sunseri?

(**For the record, I still think Clawson is a much better coach than his short tenure at UT indicated.)

All true, but OTOH, if we were to pull the trigger and fire him now, what head coach is going to want to come here and deal with that kind of pressure?

Imagine you're on the outside looking in, and you see how far this program has come since 2012.  And after one sub-par year in which injuries played a big role, the coach responsible for those advances gets canned.  Would you want to work for someone like that?

FTR, I don't think Butch is going to get it done next year.  I like our returning roster, but I'm not blind- I see all the warning signs, and I see how Butch is starting to crack. I would guess we'll be having this same conversation next December, for real this time.  But that being said, Butch has absolutely earned a second chance, if he wants it.  If he doesn't, well, that's a different kettle of fish.  If he could find another job and get out on his own, that would probably be best for all involved.

I don't totally disagree with you, and in fact, I agree on several points. 

That said, I don't think it was just one "bad year" and it was a whole lot more than just injuries. 

A couple of points:

1.  The on the field coaching issues have been there since year one.  Butch has made the same mistakes over and over again.  And it even goes back to when he was at Cincinatt, which by the way was Dooley's "signature win" during his tenure at UT (and it's not flattering to say that Dooley got his best win against you), when his team played in Knoxville.  If he hasn't "gotten it" by now it's just not likely that he ever will.  How long do you let that go before correcting the issue? 

2.   Yep, UT had the injury bug this year.  But so did Florida.  Look at their defensive losses, especially in their defensive front.  Somehow they found a way to win the games they needed to win in spite of those losses to injury.  UT lost to South Carolina and Vandy.  Repeat - South Carolina and Vandy.  Those teams cost UT the opportunity to play in Atlanta.  UT had scholarship players in the games.  It's not like they had walkon freshmen playing.  Guys are just not being developed.   

No.

Would you rather have poison ivy or poison sumac? No preference here.

While that's true to an extent, my point was to look at it from an outsider's perspective.  Particularly, that of a potential coaching hire.  They're going to see a guy who recruited at a level not seen in Knoxville since Fulmer's heyday, rescued the program from near-certain APR purgatory, and greatly improved the program's image in the community.  And his on-field results improved every season up until this one, when again, injuries played a big part.  They're going to see a fanbase that, just two years ago, was turning backflips about winning 6 games and getting to a marginal bowl after 3 straight years of staying home in December; and now they're ready to run the guy out of town when he wins 8?  To an outsider, that's not a good look.  Very few coaches are going to want to come work in that environment, no matter how much they're getting paid.


I know a lot of teams dealt with injuries, and UF's were pretty bad.  But not as bad as ours.  Not even close.  In my entire life, I've never seen a run of injuries like we had this year.  And that's not to excuse anything, especially if the S&C program played a role.  But to just brush it off and say "next man up" isn't being realistic, either.  The injuries played a big role in how this season transpired.  And even beyond hiring new staff, I think Butch's first priority for next season should be to get to the root of that issue.  Whether it's S&C, being too physical in practice, or just plain bad luck- I don't care.  Fix it.

Agree....Florida didn't sniff us on the injury front. They had them yes, but not on our level.

I've been thinking the same thing.  I think Kelly might actually be a good fit here.

Brian Kelly is just Butch Jones on steroids. Kelly has never accepted any blame for Notre Dame's performances over the last 2 years. Defense is going bad-solution: fire the DC you hired and praised. In most of the interviews, he is blaming the players, not poor coaching. If you think Butch looks upset trying to explain his poor decisions, Kelly is an angry man looking like his head is about to explode. Both Kelly and Butch have the same problem of hiring coaches that just cannot coax the best out of their players. For people that think Jones is a bad fit here, Kelly would be worse.

+1

Kelly is a prick. Butch hasn't reached Kelly's prick level......Yet!

I think a guy to keep an eye on is Colorado's Mike McIntyre.  He played in the SEC (Vandy) and had a couple stops as an assistant in this league.  As a HC, he completely turned around San Jose State (from 1-12 in his first year to 10-2 in his last) and now he's doing the same thing at CU.  He's only making 2.2M right now.  He'll probably get a raise soon, but it still won't be SEC money. If he proves not to be a fluke next year, he would be near the top of my board.

Hell no...sure we were not good this year..lots of freshmen on D..bad OL...no WR to throw to....true fresh QB...

BUT....

We currently have the #3 recruiting class in the country next year..3 WR who are over 6'2"..stud DL's and LB's...along with highly rated OL kids who will be starting next year...
Plus we are in line for the #1 class in 2018...

The only way you are going to be able to beat Nick is to match the talent...and thats what Kirby is trying to do now...

Sure this year sucked...but the ceiling is really high for this program...

Les brought in multiple "aggressive OCs" at LSU, and it did exactly squat.

He also would not have such an easy time recruiting at Tennessee.  He's a good coach, but the talent at LSU was always second only to bammer, and that matters.

Just say "no"....

Yes.  Like Butch, next year is critical for him.  Butch may follow his mentor one last time next year...either in a great comeback, or by getting fired.   :naughty:

Great points, and I agree completely.  Just hope he is also a great recruiter....

They lost 7 defensive starters during the year.  You don't think that is significant? 

Part of it was the timing Herb, they lost 2-3 key players late in the season

And they still found a way to win at LSU while we were losing to South Carolina and Vandy. 

Point being, yeah - we had injuries, but so does everybody else.  That excuse may be valid against the better teams in the league, but not for losses to bottom feeders. 

I keep hearing that Vandy is a 'bottom feeder" or as someone posted on another site "one of the two worst teams in the league".  By any measure they are not.  They beat uga, drilled ole miss, and beat us.  They nearly beat Florida.  This year they are a middle of the pack SEC team.  We still should not have lost them, but in the last half of the season they were probably in the top half of the SEC.  I know the SEC is weak, but at this point Vandy is most definitely not the worst team in it as posted on that other board.

Thanks for making my point. 

When we have to start building up Vandy to justify a loss to them, we are truly in a bad place. 

Not justifying the loss at all, but Vandy is not the worst team in the league.  They are middle of the pack.

It completely sucks that we lost to them and there is no excuse for it, but they could beat any East team at the moment, including Florida, and I think pretty much everyone except LSU and bammer and maybe Auburn from the West.