LV's are about get bounced by Maryland...

[Black Diamond Vol]

Maybe it's time to start discussing the future of another basketball coach.  Just sayin'.

[VinnieVOL]

We're never gonna win it all every year like we used to, too much parity.

They finished the year 29-6, so....  I think Holly's safe (for now).

[Black Diamond Vol]

We're never gonna win it all every year like we used to, too much parity.

They finished the year 29-6, so....  I think Holly's safe (for now).

Well, all that parity doesn't seem to be slowing UConn down.

I know we can't win them all, but I think the expectations for this program should be higher than this.  29 wins is nice, but the LVs schedule isn't what it used to be.  They no longer play UConn, and the SEC isn't nearly as strong in WBB as it was 5-10 years ago.  We are historically THE power in the SEC (and in this sport, for that matter), and we should be dominating this league.

While I agree that Holly is safe for now, we need to ask ourselves: if she weren't Pat's handpicked successor, and if she hadn't taken over under the circumstances she did, would she be getting this much leeway?  If they had brought in an outsider to replace Pat, would they get this much leeway?

[Black Diamond Vol]

Here's what worries me.  Around the country, you see college athletic directors (especially those brought in from outside their employing schools) who are hyper sensitive to the needs of football and men's hoops, and will make changes in those programs at the first signs of trouble.  But they will all but ignore an underperforming non-revenue sport, and allow it to languish for years.  I'm not saying Hart is that guy, but I sincerely hope he isn't.  I hope he understands that he's not at bama anymore- this is Tennessee, and womens' basketball matters here.

[murfvol]

A deeper run would have been nice, but overall I'm pleased with the year. Next year expectations are increased a bit.

[BanditVol]

Yeah, this was a bad way to end, but she has more time.  I agree that she will never be Pat, but I can see us winning it all with Holly.   I would definitely expect a deeper run next year.

It's pretty cool to have a program where you are disappointed by anything less than the Final Four though.   I just hope that stays true.

[Creek Walker]

I only watched bits of today's game during lunch, but my opinion of Holly was formed some time ago. I'm not impressed. I think her hire was a no-brainer, but so far she hasn't shown a lot, IMO. But I don't follow women's basketball all that closely and the expectations for someone stepping into Pat's shoes were obviously unreasonable.

[Tnphil]

LVs are soft.....play defense every now and then and when was the LAST TIME we ran a offense? Our offense is running down the floor at 90 MPH and firing up a shot or running down the floor at 95 MPH and throwing to the other team. They play offense totally out of control and it's apparent Holly can't do anything about it because she stoop over there with her hands on her hips all day. Bad offense has gone back to the last 3-4 years Pet even coached. I'm beginning to believe we don't have a coach on the sidelines that knows much offense.

As far as the No. 1 seed  it tells me the state of women's bb isn't real high. IMO you can be the 8th best women's team in the country and have no chance at winning it all. It's UConn, ND, Stanford, Louisville and Baylor and Maybe Maryland right now.

They got outplayed, out hit, out hustled and out coached today.

[Memphisvolunteer]

So are we saying that if Butch gets us to the sec championship game two straight years and can't get us in the playoffs that he should be fired??? That is basically what you guys are saying here. Holly won the sec regular season championship last yr and advanced to the elite 8 and this year won the sec tournament championship and got a #1 seed in the tournament and you guys want her fired?

Look I don"t know if she is the right fit or not but these discussions are stupid right now. Replacing someone like pat was going to be tuff to begin with and she is still trying to do that and it isn't like she has let us slip considerable. Remember what we said about pearl living in Knoxville and that being difficult for Martin? Same can be sad for pat and holly especially since pat still comes to practices and games. Also name someone outside of geno that you would hire??

Does holly need to change some things, yes but geez calling for her firing is premature at best. Also the lady vols still have a schedule of who's who just not uconn. They still play ND every year. Stanford every year and other top programs.

[BanditVol]

So are we saying that if Butch gets us to the sec championship game two straight years and can't get us in the playoffs that he should be fired??? That is basically what you guys are saying here. Holly won the sec regular season championship last yr and advanced to the elite 8 and this year won the sec tournament championship and got a #1 seed in the tournament and you guys want her fired?

Look I don"t know if she is the right fit or not but these discussions are stupid right now. Replacing someone like pat was going to be tuff to begin with and she is still trying to do that and it isn't like she has let us slip considerable. Remember what we said about pearl living in Knoxville and that being difficult for Martin? Same can be sad for pat and holly especially since pat still comes to practices and games. Also name someone outside of geno that you would hire??

Does holly need to change some things, yes but geez calling for her firing is premature at best. Also the lady vols still have a schedule of who's who just not uconn. They still play ND every year. Stanford every year and other top programs.

Where did anyone say she should be fired?  The question was more along the lines of should it be in the conversation at all?  And just looking above, I don't think anyone thinks it should.   

[Tnphil]

Correct!!! I didn't see where anyone wants her fired.....But having a team full of All-Americans and can't get to the Final Four in 6 years means there is something wrong somewhere.

[Memphisvolunteer]

Asking if we should be having discussions about someone's future sounds like firing to me, but maybe not.  Again, my question is outside of Geno, who would you want? 

[droner]

Tnphil is right. The LV's are soft. In the last few years the emphasis on recruiting has been on quick, fast and lean players. Look at all of those young women. They're very athletic, lean and quick. But they aren't very strong or big.

Were's the beef? Lady Vols championship teams of the past always had big and strong post players. When they needed to power inside on offense or come up strong on defense, they had the big girls who could handle it. They might not be able to get up and down the court at a frenzied pace that the LV's play now, but the LV's aren't as successful now playing that style. The present Lady Vol players can be pushed around and out-muscled anytime.

That analyis is worth exactly what you paid for it.

[Black Diamond Vol]

So are we saying that if Butch gets us to the sec championship game two straight years and can't get us in the playoffs that he should be fired??? That is basically what you guys are saying here. Holly won the sec regular season championship last yr and advanced to the elite 8 and this year won the sec tournament championship and got a #1 seed in the tournament and you guys want her fired?

Look I don"t know if she is the right fit or not but these discussions are stupid right now. Replacing someone like pat was going to be tuff to begin with and she is still trying to do that and it isn't like she has let us slip considerable. Remember what we said about pearl living in Knoxville and that being difficult for Martin? Same can be sad for pat and holly especially since pat still comes to practices and games. Also name someone outside of geno that you would hire??

Does holly need to change some things, yes but geez calling for her firing is premature at best. Also the lady vols still have a schedule of who's who just not uconn. They still play ND every year. Stanford every year and other top programs.

First of all, the expectations for Womens' Basketball at UT are much, much greater than they are for football, or any other sport for that matter.  That's an apples and oranges comparison.

If I were in charge, I wouldn't fire Holly yet.  But she'd be on a pretty warm seat going into next season.  While it's great that they're still scheduling OOC competition like Stanford and ND, it's not like they're winning those games.  Most of the time, they're not even competitive.  And while winning the SEC is great, it's not like the SEC is where it was a few years ago, when LSU, UGA, and Vandy were perennial top 10 programs.  So they got a #1 seed this year- did they really deserve it?  Their lackluster play in the tourney would suggest that that seeding was more the result of a soft conference schedule and the brand name across the front of their jersey.

I look at several of our contemporaries that rose to power in WBB at around the same time we did- teams like Louisiana Tech, Old Dominion, USC, UVa, and Texas.  Those programs have since dropped to mediocrity or outright irrelevance.  I don't want the LVs to go down that road.  But it's happening.  They've been surpassed on a year in year out basis not just by traditional powers like UConn, Stanford, Duke, and ND, but also upstarts like Baylor, Louisville, and Maryland.  I find that unacceptable.  Something must be done to stop the bleeding.  If Holly can't do it, then find someone who can. 

Finally, to answer your question, my first call would be to Matthew Mitchell at UK.  He worked for Pat, he basically built them into a respectable program from nothing, and I think he'd take the job.  Womens' hoops is always going to take a backseat to the men in Lexington, so I'm sure he'd jump at a higher profile job.

[Tnphil]

First of all, the expectations for Womens' Basketball at UT are much, much greater than they are for football, or any other sport for that matter.  That's an apples and oranges comparison.

If I were in charge, I wouldn't fire Holly yet.  But she'd be on a pretty warm seat going into next season.  While it's great that they're still scheduling OOC competition like Stanford and ND, it's not like they're winning those games.  Most of the time, they're not even competitive.  And while winning the SEC is great, it's not like the SEC is where it was a few years ago, when LSU, UGA, and Vandy were perennial top 10 programs.  So they got a #1 seed this year- did they really deserve it?  Their lackluster play in the tourney would suggest that that seeding was more the result of a soft conference schedule and the brand name across the front of their jersey.

I look at several of our contemporaries that rose to power in WBB at around the same time we did- teams like Louisiana Tech, Old Dominion, USC, UVa, and Texas.  Those programs have since dropped to mediocrity or outright irrelevance.  I don't want the LVs to go down that road.  But it's happening.  They've been surpassed on a year in year out basis not just by traditional powers like UConn, Stanford, Duke, and ND, but also upstarts like Baylor, Louisville, and Maryland.  I find that unacceptable.  Something must be done to stop the bleeding.  If Holly can't do it, then find someone who can. 

Finally, to answer your question, my first call would be to Matthew Mitchell at UK.  He worked for Pat, he basically built them into a respectable program from nothing, and I think he'd take the job.  Womens' hoops is always going to take a backseat to the men in Lexington, so I'm sure he'd jump at a higher profile job.

Spot on post!!!

Holly worked as Pat right hand asst. for 25 + years and IMO Pat was the hard nose, in your face, do it my way disciplinarian. Holly was the coach (like most staffs have with a hard nose head coach) that patted the girls on the back after Pat chewed their asses out and told them everything will be alright.....Now that she's the head dog I'm not sure she can change roles. This team lacks toughness and discipline bad.

[BanditVol]

BDV...I don't think the decline is as deep as you suggest.  Deserved or not, we were a no. 1 seed in the tourney.  You literally can't do better than that, although I guess there is an "overall no. 1" technically speaking.

Performance in the tourney is something else, and this year we suxed against Maryland.  And yes, not  having even a single Final Four appearance matters.

But we are hardly irrelevant yet.  Firing Holly prematurely could well make us so though.

Having said that, I don't follow women's basketball that closely enough to do more than look at the postseason results.  But speaking of which, Pat went through a long dry spell herself.

My opinion is that Holly is doing well enough for now.  If there are signs of additional decline in the coming years, then is when this conversation becomes relevant...IMO.

[Black Diamond Vol]

Having said that, I don't follow women's basketball that closely enough to do more than look at the postseason results.  But speaking of which, Pat went through a long dry spell herself.

If you're referring to Pat's final 4-5 seasons, you're right.  There's no denying that this decline began on her watch.  But in hindsight, it's easy to see why- I think her health issues began earlier than anyone realized (maybe even Pat herself).  I remember thinking as far back as '07 or so that she looked a lot less engaged on the sideline than she used to.  At the time, I just chalked it up to her mellowing with age.  But obviously there was more to it than that.  I had hoped that Holly would be able to right the ship, and maybe she still can.  But I've yet to see evidence of it.  I see a program that is declining a bit more with each passing season.  Six years without a Final Four?  At Tennessee?   How is that acceptable?  We can justify it by saying things like "we still won the SEC", or "we're still a #1 seed".  In a few years at this rate, we'll be saying "We're still in the top 25" or "We still make the NCAA tourney every year".  Before you know it, we're Louisiana Tech.  Don't bury your head in the sand- this is exactly how their decline began, and today they are a non-factor in this sport.  I don't want to join them in the "where are they now" file, but that's what I see happening unless something changes.

[RockinGrannyVol]

Spot on post!!!

Holly worked as Pat right hand asst. for 25 + years and IMO Pat was the hard nose, in your face, do it my way disciplinarian. Holly was the coach (like most staffs have with a hard nose head coach) that patted the girls on the back after Pat chewed their asses out and told them everything will be alright.....Now that she's the head dog I'm not sure she can change roles. This team lacks toughness and discipline bad.

Agree 100% with this post.   

[volsboy]

It all comes down to the recruiting. Uconn is still getting a lot more talented players than the LV. As much as we hate UConn's coach, he is a great one.

[BanditVol]

If you're referring to Pat's final 4-5 seasons, you're right. 

Not just that, but I was mostly referring to not making the Final Four from 92-94 and also not being able to win it from 1999-2007.  During that last phase, we did make the Final three times and the FF a couple other times, so maybe that wasn't really a large decline, but there was a question as to whether UT could ever win it again.  But definitely there were some ups and downs in Pat's tenure...

 

I see a program that is declining a bit more with each passing season.  Six years without a Final Four?  At Tennessee?   How is that acceptable?  We can justify it by saying things like "we still won the SEC", or "we're still a #1 seed".  In a few years at this rate, we'll be saying "We're still in the top 25" or "We still make the NCAA tourney every year".  Before you know it, we're Louisiana Tech.  Don't bury your head in the sand- this is exactly how their decline began, and today they are a non-factor in this sport.  I don't want to join them in the "where are they now" file, but that's what I see happening unless something changes.

We are on the same page here.  I am saying, looking back at the last 6 years, I don't see a "decline" as much as I see a drop off after the 2008 championship, which as you point out above happened under Pat.  I agree that the drop off was obviously influenced by Pat's health (but starting when?). 

The question I have is, has Holly done worse than Pat in her last four years?  And the answer is a resounding no.  Pat actually got knocked out in the first round in 2009...the only time that has ever happened.  In 2010 we made the Sweet Sixteen, then in 2011 and 2012 we made the Elite Eight. 

Holly has only had two years...(!)...and in those two years we made the Elite Eight and Sweet Sixteen.  So apparently the only thing to point to in terms of "decline" from the last four years of Pat's tenure is this year's tourney game.

That's an awful lot to point to and say Holly is doing worse than Pat at the end of her career.  Long term, does the prospect of having a ceiling of Elite Eight alternating with Sweet Sixteen appeal to me?  Absolutely not.

But two years in, I don't see any evidence of a decline...at all...from the last years of Pat's tenure (and was her health that bad in 2009?).  The key is that Holly so far has maintained what she inherited.

If Holly keeps us at this level even for a few more years...that's the acceptable level for me.  Eventually, she will have to start making Final Fours...I have no idea if she will or not.  But my expectations is for her to at least maintain the program where she found it (which I think so far she has!) and then to improve it.  The second part may or may not happen...but if it doesn't, she might eventually have a really bad year and that's when this conversation becomes relevant.  IMO....

[volsboy]

Success for the LV is NCAA championships. They will never beat UConn if the talent stays as it is right now.

[Creek Walker]

Speaking of Louisiana Tech, they hired none other than Tyler Summitt today. Can't help rooting for that program now.

[RockinGrannyVol]

Maybe Tyler will come home if he grows into a successful coach!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[VinnieVOL]

Speaking of Louisiana Tech, they hired none other than Tyler Summitt today. Can't help rooting for that program now.

Absolutely.

[Black Diamond Vol]

Not just that, but I was mostly referring to not making the Final Four from 92-94 and also not being able to win it from 1999-2007.  During that last phase, we did make the Final three times and the FF a couple other times, so maybe that wasn't really a large decline, but there was a question as to whether UT could ever win it again.  But definitely there were some ups and downs in Pat's tenure...

During the first period you mentioned, I think 3 years is a pretty small sample size, especially as they were retooling after winning 3 titles in 6 years.  From 99-07, I don't see that as a decline.  I see it as one program, and one program only, being better than us.  UConn had the transcendent players of the day, and we just didn't have the manpower to hang with them.  We were still able to consistently beat just about everyone else.  By contrast, in the past six seasons, we've been consistently beaten by Stanford, Duke, ND, etc.  ND beat us by 16 in Knoxville this season.  When Pat was on her game, that was unheard of.  

The question I have is, has Holly done worse than Pat in her last four years?  And the answer is a resounding no.  Pat actually got knocked out in the first round in 2009...the only time that has ever happened.  In 2010 we made the Sweet Sixteen, then in 2011 and 2012 we made the Elite Eight.

Holly has only had two years...(!)...and in those two years we made the Elite Eight and Sweet Sixteen.  So apparently the only thing to point to in terms of "decline" from the last four years of Pat's tenure is this year's tourney game.

Maybe this is blasphemy, but I expected Holly to improve on Pat's final seasons.  Isn't that why Pat was asked to step down, because she wasn't capable of doing the job anymore?  I would have expected that if you replace her with someone of sound mind, running the same system with the same players, we'd get better.  Instead, it's just been more of the same.  In hindsight, they might as well have let Pat stay on and run her win total up to 1500 or more.  

And those Sweet 16s and Elite 8s are fool's gold.  They have mostly been products of our seeding.  We're facing inferior competition in the first 2-3 games, and then getting pounded when we go up against better teams.  That game against Maryland wasn't nearly as close as the final score, and that's been a worrisome trend with this program- when they face the better OOC teams, they usually aren't even competitive.  And if that keeps up, those cushy 1 and 2 seeds are going to dry up, and we're going to start getting beaten earlier in the tourney.  

If Holly keeps us at this level even for a few more years...that's the acceptable level for me.  Eventually, she will have to start making Final Fours...I have no idea if she will or not.  But my expectations is for her to at least maintain the program where she found it (which I think so far she has!) and then to improve it.  The second part may or may not happen...but if it doesn't, she might eventually have a really bad year and that's when this conversation becomes relevant.  IMO....

I don't expect Holly to win at the same level as Pat did in her prime.  But I don't think making the Final Four half the time and winning one NC every decade or so is asking too much of this program.  Do you think she's capable of that?  At this point, I don't.  I hope she proves me wrong.