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Author Topic: Arian Foster suffers serious injury. Even though he has been a serious  (Read 18326 times)
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Volznut
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« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2015, 09:42:10 EDT »

I hear you, 'Nut, but let me add this to your philosophy:

BUCK FAMA!!! 

That should be the philosophy of anyone with a brain
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Volznut
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« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2015, 09:47:14 EDT »

a logical and and scientific case can't be made for God, Bandit. Not God as defined by the religions of the world anyway.  You can say that we have so many things in the Universe which we can't explain, but most people just say "God did it". No evidence - It's about faith. You need faith to believe in God - and faith isn't about logic and proof. By the way I don't think a person needs religion to believe in God either. I think religion is a man-made idea to control the masses.

Dying isn't a human concept. We're made of the same stuff as the earth. The earth will die. We're just here, living. So what?
I agree there's probably tons of life, even intelligent life out there - all a part of the universe, and all a part of cause and effect. Cause and effect is the truth of the universe, and if you're looking for a "force" that created life - look no further than Gravity, without which the universe would never have expanded into what it is.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 09:49:46 EDT by Volznut » Logged
RockyMtnVol
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« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2015, 09:55:27 EDT »

a logical and and scientific case can't be made for God, Bandit. Not God as defined by the religions of the world anyway.  You can say that we have so many things in the Universe which we can't explain, but most people just say "God did it". No evidence - It's about faith. You need faith to believe in God - and faith isn't about logic and proof. By the way I don't think a person needs religion to believe in God either. I think religion is a man-made idea to control the masses.

Dying isn't a human concept. We're made of the same stuff as the earth. The earth will die. We're just here, living. So what?
I agree there's probably tons of life, even intelligent life out there - all a part of the universe, and all a part of cause and effect. Cause and effect is the truth of the universe, and if you're looking for a "force" that created life - look no further than Gravity, without which the universe would never have expanded into what it is.



Logical scientist: "Where did the universe come from?"
Faithful: "God made it"
Logical scientist: "Where did God come from?"
Faithful: "You can't ask that - it's blasphemous"
Logical scientist: "Then our conversation is over.  Good day"
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Creek Walker
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« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2015, 10:12:18 EDT »

Football season starts in less than 4 weeks...and we're really going here again? 
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BanditVol
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« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2015, 02:47:08 EDT »

Football season starts in less than 4 weeks...and we're really going here again? 

So what?  It's interesting to some of us.
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« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2015, 02:51:24 EDT »

a logical and and scientific case can't be made for God, Bandit. Not God as defined by the religions of the world anyway.  You can say that we have so many things in the Universe which we can't explain, but most people just say "God did it". No evidence - It's about faith. You need faith to believe in God - and faith isn't about logic and proof. By the way I don't think a person needs religion to believe in God either. I think religion is a man-made idea to control the masses.

Dying isn't a human concept. We're made of the same stuff as the earth. The earth will die. We're just here, living. So what?
I agree there's probably tons of life, even intelligent life out there - all a part of the universe, and all a part of cause and effect. Cause and effect is the truth of the universe, and if you're looking for a "force" that created life - look no further than Gravity, without which the universe would never have expanded into what it is.

Religion or your straw man of religion?  Having asked that question, I acknowledge that many have a simple version of God which is entirely faith based.  But I am saying that God can be (and is IMO) quite complex and logical and can naturally fit into the universe.  I think some critics of the concept of God simply lack the imagination and open mindedness to see this.

As for your point on "dying", here we have a fundamental disconnect.  Let me ask you this...do you make a distinction between life and non-life?  If the answer is "no", then I am really interested in why you think that.  And let me acknowledge in advance that "life" is not easy to define with words (and yet its something fairly obvious to an observer).
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Volznut
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« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2015, 02:15:45 EDT »

Football season starts in less than 4 weeks...and we're really going here again? 

You don't have to if you don't want to.

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Volznut
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« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2015, 02:21:55 EDT »

Religion or your straw man of religion?  Having asked that question, I acknowledge that many have a simple version of God which is entirely faith based.  But I am saying that God can be (and is IMO) quite complex and logical and can naturally fit into the universe.  I think some critics of the concept of God simply lack the imagination and open mindedness to see this.

As for your point on "dying", here we have a fundamental disconnect.  Let me ask you this...do you make a distinction between life and non-life?  If the answer is "no", then I am really interested in why you think that.  And let me acknowledge in advance that "life" is not easy to define with words (and yet its something fairly obvious to an observer).

Which God, bandit? Allah ? Vishnu? Jesus? Thor? Athena? Durga?

The problem with the concept of "God" is that it is defined by the religion you happen to be indoctrinated into. To me it's just a word. If you want to say that "God" is simply the combination of forces that drives the universe and is highly complex, too complex to define fully, I can see that.  I think we place too much value on us - everything is about us - when in fact evolution teaches us that we're simply a creature that continues to evolve, like the rest of the creatures on Earth, and probably the universe.

The Universe is connected by many things. We don't comprehend most of it. That doesn't mean "God did it". That part is made up...by humans.

Now on your question on life. I do think there is a difference between life, which includes consciousness -  and inanimate objects. But that doesn't mean we're not all connected. All life comes from the stars. We're made up of the elements that are found on earth, and abundant in most of the universe. I don't think humans are that important - we do understand more than other animals and we are the only species on Earth that realizes where we are in the universe. But so what? I often hear people say that when we are born we come into the world, and then when we die we leave the world. I think it's the other way around. We come out of the world when we are born, and we go back in when we die. That's it though. We don't come back and I don't believe in heaven/hell.

I do appreciate your view on God, and I respect anyone's right to believe whatever they believe.
 

« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 02:28:56 EDT by Volznut » Logged
Volznut
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« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2015, 02:33:12 EDT »

Logical scientist: "Where did the universe come from?"
Faithful: "God made it"
Logical scientist: "Where did God come from?"
Faithful: "You can't ask that - it's blasphemous"
Logical scientist: "Then our conversation is over.  Good day"

True enough. "God did it and to question that is blasphemous". Keeps people in line.

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Clockwork Orange
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« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2015, 04:29:13 EDT »

I often hear people say that when we are born we come into the world, and then when we die we leave the world. I think it's the other way around. We come out of the world when we are born, and we go back in when we die.

I'm sitting this discussion out but I did want to acknowledge this comment. I really like that. That way of thinking has had a profound impact on the way I approach life and death. When I die I my atoms will become soil and trees and streams and air and rain and worms and birds . . . I think that is a beautiful thought.

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« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2015, 05:28:41 EDT »

I like that, too.  Certainly consistent with physical reality.
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Be-the-Vol
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« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2015, 08:21:26 EDT »

I think both religion and science have the same problem - How did it all start?  Neither can prove anything when it comes to how things really got going.  One relies on faith and one relies on science/theory - I'm ok with both.   

Faithful: "Where did the universe come from?"
Scientist: "The Big Bang"
Faithful: "Where did the Big Bang come from?"
Scientist: "You can't ask that - it's settled science"
Faithful: "Then our conversation is over.  Good day"

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RockyMtnVol
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« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2015, 10:12:05 EDT »

I think both religion and science have the same problem - How did it all start?  Neither can prove anything when it comes to how things really got going.  One relies on faith and one relies on science/theory - I'm ok with both.   

Faithful: "Where did the universe come from?"
Scientist: "The Big Bang"
Faithful: "Where did the Big Bang come from?"
Scientist: "You can't ask that - it's settled science"
Faithful: "Then our conversation is over.  Good day"



Actual answer: "That's a great question - how can we find out?"

...and therein lies the difference.
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Be-the-Vol
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« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2015, 12:08:56 EDT »

Actual answer: "That's a great question - how can we find out?"

...and therein lies the difference.


Both sides of the issue can answer that the same way (and many on both sides have been "trying to find out" for millennia).  We obviously differ in the way we view this topic.  I believe that neither science nor religion will ever be able to answer that question, while you seem to believe that science can somehow determine how something came from nothing (or explain how something has always been).

My feeling on religion is  - if you think you have it figured out, you're wrong (that goes for church "leaders" all the way down to the layman).  My feeling on science is - if you think science can explain everything the universe has to offer, you're wrong (that goes for people like Hawking down to grade school science teachers).

Unlike many on either side of the issue, I don't believe that belief in religion and being true to science are mutually exclusive.
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Creek Walker
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« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2015, 12:10:17 EDT »

So what?  It's interesting to some of us.

Hey, feel free. I'm certainly not a board cop so who am I to tell anyone what to discuss? I just think it's a waste of time when we could be talking football. But, who knows, I may jump in with both feet before all is said and done.
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Volznut
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« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2015, 04:34:33 EDT »

I think both religion and science have the same problem - How did it all start?  Neither can prove anything when it comes to how things really got going.  One relies on faith and one relies on science/theory - I'm ok with both.   

Faithful: "Where did the universe come from?"
Scientist: "The Big Bang"
Faithful: "Where did the Big Bang come from?"
Scientist: "You can't ask that - it's settled science"
Faithful: "Then our conversation is over.  Good day"



Incorrect. A scientist will never say you can't ask that. He will tell you that we are learning every day and to always ask questions. That is the difference
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PirateVOL
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« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2015, 05:08:40 EDT »

Incorrect. A scientist will never say you can't ask that. He will tell you that we are learning every day and to always ask questions. That is the difference

Except for the religious fanatics of the Global Warming cult.
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Those who Dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds
Wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the
Dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they
May act their dream with open eyes, to make it Possible.
This I did.
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The Seven Pillars of Wisdom
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« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2015, 03:07:55 EDT »

Incorrect. A scientist will never say you can't ask that. He will tell you that we are learning every day and to always ask questions. That is the difference


Incorrect.  A rational scientist would never say you can't ask that.  Not all scientists are rational, especially when challenged.  Keep in mind, they're still human.  They may think they are being rational and purely relying on science, but they have the same human frailties as anyone else.  Now, substitute "believer" and "beliefs" for "scientists" and "science" and the same holds true.  Both can be extremely dogmatic and inflexible.  I see no difference.

To bring this back to sports, the existence of God is like the number of bama championships; can't be proved or disproved, and there are wackos on both sides of the debate. 
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Creek Walker
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« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2015, 04:09:22 EDT »

Well, why not?  

I strongly disagree with the assertion that Christians rely on blind faith -- a mentality of "do not question, because it just is the way it is." Obviously faith is the very core of Christianity. But that doesn't mean that faith has to be blind.

Quite to the contrary. There are a lot of different ways to find concrete evidence behind the age-old question, "Is there a God?" There may not be a smoking gun that can positively, definitely prove the existence of a divine presence for non-believers, but certainly there's enough circumstantial evidence for probable cause. For starters, there are the very questions that science have thus far been unable to provide an answer for regarding the origin of life. Darwin's theory of common descent can explain physical life. Lemaître's Big Bang Theory can explain the universe that's inhabited by that life. But how do you explain the existence of the particles that would eventually create the "big bang"? It's easy to say, "Well just because science can't prove how it started doesn't mean God is real." Of course not. But if you trace the origins of this whole grand scheme we call existence far enough back, you will eventually arrive at a point where something had to come from nothing. And something doesn't come from nothing unless someone or something created it. I can't really wrap my mind around the idea of the omnipresence of God -- that he just always was. But neither can I wrap my mind around the idea of something coming from nothing. And if something came from nothing, why not a divine presence? And if it was a divine presence, why not the God my faith is placed in? Sure, there are a lot of different gods that are worshiped by people of different faiths. But let's not forget that most of the world's foremost religions -- Christianity, Judaism and Islam -- all worship the same god, even if they fundamentally differ on just about everything else.

But that isn't the real point of my post. Nor is the scientific and physical evidence that points to the existence of a divine god. Instead, it's the simplicity of the historical record. I say simple, because it really is: We know, from the secular historical record as well as the religious historical record, that a man named Jesus lived ~2,000 years ago and claimed to be God in the flesh. No secular historian who is considered relevant has ever offered evidence to dispute this. The actual existence of Jesus cannot be ignored. If Jesus was who he claimed to be, God is real. If he wasn't, God isn't.

We know, from secular and religious historical texts, that Jesus developed quite a following but that he also generated a lot of hatred, particularly among followers of Judaism, and we know he was eventually executed. Even if the death of Jesus was the end of him, he was one of the greatest and most influential teachers mankind has ever known. But if the death was the end of him, it would shatter the very tenements of Christianity. What, then, became of Jesus's body? After all, the only point where secular history and religious history dissent is what became of Jesus after his death. The facts of his life, his ministry claiming to be the son of God, his arrest and his execution, none of those things are disputed.

So what became of his body? Was it, as Rome's top brass claimed, removed from the tomb and hidden by his followers in a move to fulfill his predictions and protect his legacy? That would be the easiest way to explain it all away, but what about those who knew Jesus personally who went to their grave proclaiming him as God? That's where things get particularly interesting. Many of the disciples who were Jesus's closest followers and confidants were executed because they refused to renounce him, and several of them died very cruel deaths. None of them renounced him. Those simple acts of defiance to the Roman Empire speak volumes. As has been written, most of us would have little problem living for a lie, but how many of us would be willing to die for a lie? These were the men who were there when Jesus died, and they were the ones who claimed that he came back to life three days later, who claimed to have seen him after his resurrection and who claimed to have seen him ascend into the sky. If it was all a lie, if they had to steal Jesus's body from the tomb and hide it in order to protect Jesus's legacy, would they really have been willing to die, often cruelly, to protect that lie? I don't know about you all, but I have several friends I think I would be willing to give my life for. (I say "think," because it's easy to talk a big game until you're actually staring adversity in the face.) But I don't have any dead friends I would be willing to give my life for. And I guarantee you I wouldn't give my life to protect something I knew to be a lie about one of my friends, whether they're dead or alive. If those men had seen that Jesus didn't arise from the dead, as he had promised them he would, would they really have faced torturers and executers without crumbling? Not even one of them? Their deaths are different from the many other early Christians who were martyred over the years (and, actually, are still being executed for their faith even today). Those Christians were and are being killed because they refuse to renounce their faith. And that's admirable, but different, because they never saw the man named Jesus in the flesh. The early disciples saw him. They walked with him. They knew his most closely-held secrets. And they died, some by the sword, some by crucifixion, and some naturally, ALL claiming that Jesus's execution wasn't the end of him. That's remarkable and, in my opinion, the greatest physical proof of God's existence.

Don't get me wrong; I don't need all that to prop up my faith. Like everyone else who claims to be a "born-again child of God," I can say without hesitation that God revealed himself to me years ago. As a Calvanist Christian, I firmly believe that God finds us, not the other way around. And once that happens, he manifests himself in us. It's an emotional, spiritual experience that most people will never understand and that a growing number choose to mock or belittle, and that's okay. Religious beliefs are a very personal thing and I'm okay with others not sharing my beliefs.

But for non-believers who are questioning the existence of God, I think all of the above is relevant. If you can study the writings of Pontius Pilate to Caesar Tiberius, and all the other secular accounts of Jesus's life, and come away 100% convinced that God is just some fairy tale, some "sky daddy," that's your right. I don't think I could. But that's just me.
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« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2015, 12:24:00 EDT »

Incorrect. A scientist will never say you can't ask that. He will tell you that we are learning every day and to always ask questions. That is the difference


To make a bad pun, in theory a scientist will tell you that but many of them are quite close minded and just as biased as any religious person.

For instance, I think the evidence for the big bang theory is quite weak.  A leading reason that scientists are searching for the 95% of matter that is "missing" or "dark" (derisive snort goes here) is not so much that observational evidence calls for it but because it saves a tenet of the early big bang theory.  That is, the big bang theory falls apart unless early in the development of the universe there was a lot more matter that cannot be seen currently or is hard to detect.

Scientists like to give the impression (well some of them) that the "big bang theory" (calling it one name is a bit misleading as there are many variants) is established fact, on par with say, the ability to measure the atomic weight of hyrdrogen.

And yet...they are looking for 95% of the 'missing matter' in order to salvage it!  It's downright laughable.   
,
The thing about it is, Neal Tyson DeGrasse, who is an open atheist and not shy about attacking "intelligent design" proponents recently did an 11 show remake of Cosmos, the classic science show by Sagan.  In the last show, DeGrasse discusses the "dark matter" problem and finally gets around to admitting they really don't know what's going on and have a lot of work to do.

I'd like to see that attitude and admission from scientists a lot more frequently, frankly. 
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