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Screaming Eagle Dad
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« on: September 19, 2012, 04:38:58 EDT » |
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ut-mulling-cease-and-desist-letter-on-prayer. This may not be the place for this topic, but we are living in a society where the minority population has the upper hand over the general population. It's wrong, period.
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Inspector Vol
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 05:13:41 EDT » |
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I'm sorry but anyone who would complain about that is just plain mean.
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VinnieVOL
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 05:19:00 EDT » |
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Utterly ridiculous.
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RIPLEYVOL
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2012, 05:31:05 EDT » |
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The few can kiss the many's arse!
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Screaming Eagle Dad
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2012, 05:47:49 EDT » |
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It is mean, it is ridiculous, and yes the few can kiss you know where. But the fact remains that this small fraction of society is growing and growing in influence. I do believe that the talking heads in the Chancellors Office will bow down to the demands of that small fraction of society. When they do I very well may never attend another Volunteers Football game. I'll be there this Saturday with my son becasue he bought me two tickets for my birthhday. But that may just be it for me, I can support my Vols from home where I can not be punished for my beliefs.
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« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 07:10:23 EDT by Screaming Eagle Dad »
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VOLMAN
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2012, 05:49:47 EDT » |
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Christian faith will be outlawed...we shouldn't be surprised as it was foretold. Look around at world events and you can clearly see that the signs of the approaching end times are rapidly developing.
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JeffCountyVolFan
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2012, 05:52:40 EDT » |
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Probably not going to be a popular opinion, but I see the argument that this should be eliminated. First off, I am a Christian and believe in prayer. I also believe in witnessing to those who are not saved. I just believe that in this country, the Constitution does not provide for a state-funded institution to "lead" in a religious activity (thereby promoting that religion).
In my opinion, the fact that the majority wants it is irrelevant because the Constitution prohibits state controlled religion, and UT is a state institution. I would not want a UT led activity to begin with an atheism based indoctrination simply because the majority of attendees was of that mindset. I would not want a UT led activity to begin with a Muslim led prayer for the same reasons.
What I would like to see instead: A moment of silence, where the entire crowd takes it upon themselves to recite The Lord's Prayer (without the use of the PA or without a UT selected prayer-giver) - and in this scenario there would be nothing that the opposition could challenge because it would not be an institutionally orchestrated action, thereby in no way violating anyone's constitutional rights.
Just my opinion.
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Screaming Eagle Dad
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« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2012, 05:57:06 EDT » |
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Christian faith will be outlawed...we shouldn't be surprised as it was foretold. Look around at world events and you can clearly see that the signs of the approaching end times are rapidly developing.
It doesn't surprise me at all and I agree with you 100%. |
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Jean Voljean
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« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2012, 06:18:12 EDT » |
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Matthew 6:5-6
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VOLMAN
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« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2012, 06:42:18 EDT » |
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churches to use the capital building for church services etc.....it's clear that if they really intended no public display of faith anywhere on public grounds they would not have done so.
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Screaming Eagle Dad
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« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2012, 06:58:47 EDT » |
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Probably not going to be a popular opinion, but I see the argument that this should be eliminated. First off, I am a Christian and believe in prayer. I also believe in witnessing to those who are not saved. I just believe that in this country, the Constitution does not provide for a state-funded institution to "lead" in a religious activity (thereby promoting that religion).
In my opinion, the fact that the majority wants it is irrelevant because the Constitution prohibits state controlled religion, and UT is a state institution. I would not want a UT led activity to begin with an atheism based indoctrination simply because the majority of attendees was of that mindset. I would not want a UT led activity to begin with a Muslim led prayer for the same reasons.
What I would like to see instead: A moment of silence, where the entire crowd takes it upon themselves to recite The Lord's Prayer (without the use of the PA or without a UT selected prayer-giver) - and in this scenario there would be nothing that the opposition could challenge because it would not be an institutionally orchestrated action, thereby in no way violating anyone's constitutional rights.
Just my opinion.
Congress has a paid Chaplain and they open each session with prayer to God asking for guidance and blessings upon the very people that our vote put in office. There is no difference between that and opening prayer at sporting events. |
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murfvol
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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2012, 07:03:38 EDT » |
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1) I think the complaint is crazy because student organizations are involved and the opportunity to pray is given to all groups.
2) I'm good if the "prayer" is done away with. Here's why. I believe in an omnipotent God who is holy and can be known. That being the case I have often said most prayers at Neyland don't clear the light towers. It's my belief very little of what is uttered is a prayer. They're either words meant to be clever or devoid of any semblance of an address to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Don't get me wrong. I'd love it if everyone at Neyland prayed, but my take is those inclined to prayer can do so and those who aren't probably see a very poor model for it. Most "prayers" there give Christianity (ostensibly the domiant religion of those praying) as bad a name as TV preachers.
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« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 07:09:55 EDT by murfvol »
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"The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?" - Ecclesiastes 6:11
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VinnieVOL
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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2012, 07:14:59 EDT » |
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VoLynteer
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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2012, 07:54:14 EDT » |
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All I can say is every UT fan in that stadium is gonna be praying if a game comes down to us making a field goal.
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JeffCountyVolFan
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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2012, 08:00:44 EDT » |
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All I can say is every UT fan in that stadium is gonna be praying if a game comes down to us making a field goal.
Hahaha! Hilarious, but true! |
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MIAUTIGER
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« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2012, 08:24:37 EDT » |
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1) I think the complaint is crazy because student organizations are involved and the opportunity to pray is given to all groups.
2) I'm good if the "prayer" is done away with. Here's why. I believe in an omnipotent God who is holy and can be known. That being the case I have often said most prayers at Neyland don't clear the light towers. It's my belief very little of what is uttered is a prayer. They're either words meant to be clever or devoid of any semblance of an address to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Don't get me wrong. I'd love it if everyone at Neyland prayed, but my take is those inclined to prayer can do so and those who aren't probably see a very poor model for it. Most "prayers" there give Christianity (ostensibly the domiant religion of those praying) as bad a name as TV preachers.
They guy that has prayed the pre-game prayer for the fist Vol home game for the past 10 years goes to my church. And I will tell you that his prayers get through ("The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much" ) as he is a righteous man if ever there was one. He has a prayer booth on campus and has the respect of many an admin at the school, and has helped many a student, domestic and foreign, through tought times. And besides, he is 10 for 10, with a Vol win in each of those 10 home openers.  |
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Bammer suxes! That is all!
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Inspector Vol
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« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2012, 08:46:08 EDT » |
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Matthew 6:5-6
If you are trying to say all public prayer is a no no because of that scripture, then I believe you are missing the intent of the passage. If not please expand on your thought. |
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Clockwork Orange
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« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2012, 08:50:45 EDT » |
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This is why UT should not do a prayer: I just believe that in this country, the Constitution does not provide for a state-funded institution to "lead" in a religious activity (thereby promoting that religion).
. . .
In my opinion, the fact that the majority wants it is irrelevant because the Constitution prohibits state controlled religion, and UT is a state institution.
And this is why Christians shouldn't care: Matthew 6:5-6
For the record, it doesn't bother me enough to lodge a complaint or file a lawsuit-- I'm probably just used to it. I just look quietly around while everyone is bowing their head in prayer, appreciating the still and the quiet for a few seconds before the crowd works into a frenzy for pregame and the running through the T. If they removed the prayer, that'd be fine too. |
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"Stay patient and be strong, 'cause it's gonna hit. And when it hits, it's gonna hit hard."  |
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murfvol
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« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2012, 09:37:26 EDT » |
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Maybe I'd be more disturbed if I thought football at Neyland was played to honor God, but it seems to be entertainment. Sure, football is neither good nor bad. It just is. This isn't to say Neyland is a den of iniquity, but given the number of inebriated fans and amount of profanity used it really doesn't strike me as a place full of people who care about honoring God (obviously there are plenty who do). If people bow their heads and then scream about the bleep, bleep, bleeping playcall that's kind of pointless. The good thing is I can always pray if I want to. It doesn't even have to be out loud and my eyes don't have to be shut. And if I'm praying I've got to confess it's not about football.  In short, I can always have a pregame, mid-first quarter, second timeout of the third quarter, fifth turnover, or whenever prayer. |
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"The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?" - Ecclesiastes 6:11
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Inspector Vol
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« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2012, 09:53:26 EDT » |
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Again the central message of that passage IMHO is not abolishing public prayer. It is admonishing those who do so just to impress people or themselves.
If it gives Glory to God and represents what Christianity is all about then it is ok from God's POV.
We are also to pray in secret (alone). The two are not mutually exclusive according to scripture.
Arguing against as a separation of Church and state is a valid argument, even if I disagree, but using that passage as an argument against it is not the route to take.
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murfvol
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 10:02:15 EDT » |
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Well said Inspector. Self-aggrandizement is no good, but a humble prayer is fine anywhere. Hey, the reason I'm a Christian is because I'm messed up and powerless to save and change myself. If I was a great guy I wouldn't need God.
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« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 10:09:20 EDT by murfvol »
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"The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?" - Ecclesiastes 6:11
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Clockwork Orange
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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2012, 10:08:46 EDT » |
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Again the central message of that passage IMHO is not abolishing public prayer. It is admonishing those who do so just to impress people or themselves.
If it gives Glory to God and represents what Christianity is all about then it is ok from God's POV.
We are also to pray in secret (alone). The two are not mutually exclusive according to scripture.
Arguing against as a separation of Church and state is a valid argument, even if I disagree, but using that passage as an argument against it is not the route to take.
Which is why I said it's why Christians shouldn't care, not why it's wrong to have the prayer. |
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"Stay patient and be strong, 'cause it's gonna hit. And when it hits, it's gonna hit hard." |
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murfvol
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« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2012, 10:18:19 EDT » |
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Yeah, I'm with you on this Clock. It matters not one iota to me.
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"The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?" - Ecclesiastes 6:11
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Inspector Vol
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« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2012, 11:19:34 EDT » |
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My bad. I was operating from the position of using it to prohibit (my response to JVJ post) since that premise was not corrected I just carried it on to your response. No worries. Which is why I said it's why Christians shouldn't care, not why it's wrong to have the prayer.
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Clockwork Orange
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« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2012, 11:41:57 EDT » |
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My bad. I was operating from the position of using it to prohibit (my response to JVJ post) since that premise was not corrected I just carried it on to your response. No worries.
No worries here either. I just wanted to be understood (don't we all ). |
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"Stay patient and be strong, 'cause it's gonna hit. And when it hits, it's gonna hit hard." |
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