Jason Collins: The first openly gay NBA player

[Creek Walker]

That's great. Where in the 10 commandments does it teach you to hate Gay people?

Again, who is teaching anyone to hate gay people? I'd love for you to come and sit through a couple of sermons at my decidedly conservative, Southern Baptist church. It might clear up a lot of misperceptions.

[Clockwork Orange]

Exactly. And that's the point the opposite side of this debate has difficulty wrapping their minds around. Any Christian who is truly teaching their kids the Bible will teach them that homosexuality is a sin. They will also teach them that God is love, that it isn't our job to judge people according to their sins and, although it isn't written explicitly in the Bible, "God hates the sin, not the sinner."

And, CO, your argument was that the MAJORITY of people in the US are being taught by irresponsible people like Sunday School teachers that homosexuality is an abomination, and that in turn is what leads to bullying. Those are YOUR words, not MINE, as you said. It's pretty easy for anyone to take a Bible and build the argument that homosexuality is a sin. It's not very easy to take a Bible and build an argument that homosexuals should be targets of abuse or hatred. Are there people who teach their kids that gay people should be hated? Yes there are. But to lump all Sunday School teachers who are teaching children about the Bible into a wholesale group is foolish nonsense.

Creek, kids do not have to be taught to pick on people they perceive to be different from/less than/weaker than themselves. That comes from human nature. But when their parents teach them who those different/lesser/weaker people are, then don't be surprised when they become targets.

Neither of us wants to have a conversation about the bible, as what it says is not the point. You know that there is religious basis for much bigotry WRT homosexuality. I can't imagine that you will sincerely deny this.

[VinnieVOL]

Easy for you to say. You are married to the person you love and have all the legal rights that entails.

And by the way, let me throw out there that I find this highsappointing. I think you both know me by now, and you know that I am not who you are painting me to be. But it's convenient to do so because it allows you to dismiss everything that I have said without acknowledging its truth.

Lets just say that makes two of us who are disappointed.

[Clockwork Orange]

Lets just say that makes two of us who are disappointed.

Your first version of this response was better. I'll accept that apology even if you didn't mean it.

As to this one, OK.

[Creek Walker]

Creek, kids do not have to be taught to pick on people they perceive to be different from/less than/weaker than themselves. That comes from human nature. But when their parents teach them who those different/lesser/weaker people are, then don't be surprised when they become targets.

Neither of us wants to have a conversation about the bible, as what it says is not the point. You know that there is religious basis for much bigotry WRT homosexuality. I can't imagine that you will sincerely deny this.

I know that there are some who are weak and cowardly who will use religion as a crutch; as an excuse for bigotry and hatred. I also know that, contrary to what you posted above, that is NOT mainstream Christianity. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Believe it or not, it is possible to teach that homosexuality is a sin and not teach hatred nor promote it. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Your wholesale condemnation of millions of Americans as hatemongerers is simply without merit.

[EmerilVOL]

I know that there are some who are weak and cowardly who will use religion as a crutch; as an excuse for bigotry and hatred. I also know that, contrary to what you posted above, that is NOT mainstream Christianity. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Believe it or not, it is possible to teach that homosexuality is a sin and not teach hatred nor promote it. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Your wholesale condemnation of millions of Americans as hatemongerers is simply without merit.

Let us all join hands and sing Kumbya over and over......

[101stDad]

It will be an issue as long as they are marginalized and discriminated against; as long as gay kids are so afraid to be who they are that some of them choose to end their life instead; and as long as homosexuals don't have the same rights as heterosexuals do. Just over 10% of the US population in the 1960s was black, but I'd say the national attention that minority's issues got during that time was warranted, and as a nation we are better for it.

Jason Collins coming out publicly as a professional athlete will make a difference, IMO, if only to a small portion of the population who are just a little more inclined to be themselves, or to love their children despite being different. That's worth talking about.

To compare homosexuality with race is absurd.  You can choose who and what you want to have sex with.  You can't choose what race you are born.

And, yeah - I know.  Scientific studies say ..................

One can make a scientific study say anything they want to make it say.  

Having "urges" is one thing.  Human beings have urges to do a lot of things.  Whether they act on them or not is a different story.  

I don't care if one wants to have sex with a turnip.  That's their choice.  Wanting special treatment because of it is not a right.  

[VinnieVOL]

Your wholesale condemnation of millions of Americans as hatemongerers is simply without merit.

Yep, which is why edited my apology out. 

[101stDad]

Being morally opposed to a lifestyle does not unilaterally equate hatred.  And all Christian groups aren't teaching their kids to go out and bully gay peers.  Why don't you go ahead and lop us all in with the Wetboro crowd.  Lol, good grief.

Don't even try, Vinnie.  That's the party line of the left.  They believe that any who professes a Christian faith are like the Westboro group.  The political left, and especially in this day, is the most intolerant group out there. They are tolerant, as long as you agree with them.   Disagree with them and the party line begins.  

[VinnieVOL]

To compare homosexuality with race is absurd.  You can choose who and what you want to have sex with.  You can't choose what race you are born.

And, yeah - I know.  Scientific studies say ..................

One cam make a scientific study say anything they want to make it say. 

Having "urges" is one thing.  Human beings have urges to do a lot of things.  Whether they act on them or not is a different story. 

I don't care if one wants to have sex with a turnip.  That's their choice.  Wanting special treatment because of it is not a right. 

  

[Clockwork Orange]

Don't even try, Vinnie.  That's the party line of the left.  They believe that any who professes a Christian faith are like the Westboro group.  The political left, and especially in this day, is the most intolerant group out there. They are tolerant, as long as you agree with them.   Disagree with them and the party line begins.  

Good thing I'm not the political left! They sound like real bastards.

[VOLveeta]

I'm a proud heterosexual Christian single father of an amazing little girl.  I COMPLETELY support gay rights, and I'm a conservative Christian but if I say I support gay rights I'm a screaming liberal because that's the only possible way I could support it according to some of you.

I was born the way I am... desiring women.  As gay folks were born to grow into adults who are attracted to their own sex.  Piss on science all you want, pretend like it isn't fact all you want... and this stupid argument will continue forever.  If you find their behavior reprehensible, trust me the LAST thing I want to even imagine is some of you folks in your bedrooms.  BARF!  VOMIT!

If the tax code is more advantageous to heteros than to gays because heteros can marry, that is the end of any question as to whether there is or isn't discrimination.  That one single issue is enough to negate any comment suggesting homosexuals have the same rights as any of us.  If I charge you significantly more in taxes, let's not hear you scream discrimination as well. 

I swear to goodness, I am so sick of this I just want to turn the internet off.  If you don't like homosexuals, fine.  Don't marry one.  Don't move next door to one.  Cast your son or daughter aside if he or she tells you "I'm gay".  It's your business.  But if you want the "screaming" and "forcing it down our throats" to stop?  Then make it a fair and equitable world... and hide in your cave.

What would Jesus do?  I know for a fact what he would do and it would be the same as he would do for anyone else.  UGH!

[Clockwork Orange]

Yep, which is why edited my apology out.  

I'd ask where this condemnation was, but Creek would quote this:

This is tending toward being awfully loungeish but there is systematic, learned, bigotry toward gays in this country, largely stemming from religious groups. Kids are literally taught that homosexuality is an abomination, and this is not from some fringe minority group . . . nor is it random. This is from the majority population in the USA. Acts of bullying and abuse toward homosexual kids are bred and taught indirectly, if not explicitly, by the "morals" millions of kids in this country are taught by their parents, sunday school teachers, and other irresponsible people in their lives. It is NOT the same as other bullying because they are targeting based on what they have been taught at home, not based on some stupid playground jackassery.

Therefore, Clockwork has condemned all Christians as hatemongers. QED. It's an awfully easy strawman to attack, but I'm glad three of you have been working on it just to make it faster. Whenever you want to actually confront the issue that some religions do teach intolerance,  do paint homosexuals as deviants, and  do contribute to the general problem of discrimination, I'd be happy to talk about that with you. To this point, all you've been confronting is my strawman.

If it makes me "intolerant" because I won't tolerate the treatment of a group of human beings as deviants, evil, abominations, etc. and the teaching of these views to children then I suppose I am "intolerant." I'll gladly rally behind that banner. Because these are human beings, with loves, fears, hopes, dreams, curiosities, strengths, and weaknesses like the rest of us. They don't deserve what they have been dished so far and I, for one, am glad that public sentiment-- even among many religious groups-- is shifting in favor of equal treatment.

And I'm done with this thread. Good evening, gentlemen. You are free to judge me as you wish, but I am 100% comfortable with my feelings on this issue. 20 years from now your kids are going to wonder how this was even a question our generation had to ask.

[Creek Walker]

I'd ask where this condemnation was, but Creek would quote this:

Therefore, Clockwork has condemned all Christians as hatemongers. QED. It's an awfully easy strawman to attack, but I'm glad three of you have been working on it just to make it faster. Whenever you want to actually confront the issue that some religions do teach intolerance,  do paint homosexuals as deviants, and  do contribute to the general problem of discrimination, I'd be happy to talk about that with you. To this point, all you've been confronting is my strawman.

If it makes me "intolerant" because I won't tolerate the treatment of a group of human beings as deviants, evil, abominations, etc. and the teaching of these views to children then I suppose I am "intolerant." I'll gladly rally behind that banner. Because these are human beings, with loves, fears, hopes, dreams, curiosities, strengths, and weaknesses like the rest of us. They don't deserve what they have been dished so far and I, for one, am glad that public sentiment-- even among many religious groups-- is shifting in favor of equal treatment.

And I'm done with this thread. Good evening, gentlemen. You are free to judge me as you wish, but I am 100% comfortable with my feelings on this issue. 20 years from now your kids are going to wonder how this was even a question our generation had to ask.

I'm sorry; I really don't want an argument with you, but enough with the faux indignation over what I said. Your use of the words "millions" and "majority" made your intent pretty clear. Christians who teach their children that homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible are responsible for promoting hatred of gay people -- is that or isn't that what you intended by your statement?

[101stDad]

I'd ask where this condemnation was, but Creek would quote this:

Therefore, Clockwork has condemned all Christians as hatemongers. QED. It's an awfully easy strawman to attack, but I'm glad three of you have been working on it just to make it faster. Whenever you want to actually confront the issue that some religions do teach intolerance,  do paint homosexuals as deviants, and  do contribute to the general problem of discrimination, I'd be happy to talk about that with you. To this point, all you've been confronting is my strawman.

If it makes me "intolerant" because I won't tolerate the treatment of a group of human beings as deviants, evil, abominations, etc. and the teaching of these views to children then I suppose I am "intolerant." I'll gladly rally behind that banner. Because these are human beings, with loves, fears, hopes, dreams, curiosities, strengths, and weaknesses like the rest of us. They don't deserve what they have been dished so far and I, for one, am glad that public sentiment-- even among many religious groups-- is shifting in favor of equal treatment.

And I'm done with this thread. Good evening, gentlemen. You are free to judge me as you wish, but I am 100% comfortable with my feelings on this issue. 20 years from now your kids are going to wonder how this was even a question our generation had to ask.

Again, you've used one of the favorite tactics of the intolerant left.  You can't understand that MOST people who don't fall on your side can actually differentiate between the sin and the sinner.  Homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible that Christianity believes in.  That doesn't mean that we "hate" those who practice homosexuality.  I don't hate anybody, except maybe Kliempsein fans.  

[Creek Walker]

I'm a proud heterosexual Christian single father of an amazing little girl.  I COMPLETELY support gay rights, and I'm a conservative Christian but if I say I support gay rights I'm a screaming liberal because that's the only possible way I could support it according to some of you.

I was born the way I am... desiring women.  As gay folks were born to grow into adults who are attracted to their own sex.  Piss on science all you want, pretend like it isn't fact all you want... and this stupid argument will continue forever.  If you find their behavior reprehensible, trust me the LAST thing I want to even imagine is some of you folks in your bedrooms.  BARF!  VOMIT!

If the tax code is more advantageous to heteros than to gays because heteros can marry, that is the end of any question as to whether there is or isn't discrimination.  That one single issue is enough to negate any comment suggesting homosexuals have the same rights as any of us.  If I charge you significantly more in taxes, let's not hear you scream discrimination as well. 

I swear to goodness, I am so sick of this I just want to turn the internet off.  If you don't like homosexuals, fine.  Don't marry one.  Don't move next door to one.  Cast your son or daughter aside if he or she tells you "I'm gay".  It's your business.  But if you want the "screaming" and "forcing it down our throats" to stop?  Then make it a fair and equitable world... and hide in your cave.

What would Jesus do?  I know for a fact what he would do and it would be the same as he would do for anyone else.  UGH!

Since you used the "forcing it down our throats" comment, I assume you were directing part of that at me. As I've maintained throughout this thread, I have absolutely no problem with gay people. I have friends who are gay, and I defend their right to live the lifestyle they choose. It's none of my business what they do with their lives and I'm not going to lose any sleep if and when the state constitutional amendments against gay marriage are struck down. I don't see same-sex marriage as being a civil rights issue but I don't really care to go into that long and detailed argument, even now that the thread is in the political forum. I also have my feelings on whether homosexuality is a choice but, again, that isn't something I care to go into a lengthy debate over.

However, the flip side of all this is my rights as a Christian. I don't have the right to try to force everyone to live according to God's law, and I wouldn't want to even if I could. But I do have the right to teach my children according to my beliefs, and I won't stand by and see good, Christian parents dragged through the mud as hatemongerers and bigots for teaching that homosexuality is a sin any more than I'll stand by and see my gay friends verbally accosted because of their beliefs. As we've already well established in this thread, teaching certain human behaviors as sin is not the same as teaching intolerance or hatred. If it was, we'd be having this same conversation about any number of other people because there are many legal and socially acceptable behaviors that are taught as sins in the Bible and parents (and Sunday School teachers) are teaching children about those behaviors just as they're teaching them about homosexuality. Are we to ask that parents stop teaching their children that homosexuality is a sin? Anyone who is a Christian who believes that homosexuality is not condemned in the Bible is simply choosing which parts of the Bible he wishes to accept and which he wishes to ignore. Yet, I don't know very many Christians who harbor a hatred or resentment of gay people. Most Christians I know are more apt to pray for them than belittle them in conversation with others. Exceptions? Sure, there are exceptions to that. But let's make sure we realize there's a distinction between the exception and the norm . . . and that's been my argument all along.

[VOLveeta]

Since you used the "forcing it down our throats" comment, I assume you were directing part of that at me. As I've maintained throughout this thread, I have absolutely no problem with gay people. I have friends who are gay, and I defend their right to live the lifestyle they choose. It's none of my business what they do with their lives and I'm not going to lose any sleep if and when the state constitutional amendments against gay marriage are struck down. I don't see same-sex marriage as being a civil rights issue but I don't really care to go into that long and detailed argument, even now that the thread is in the political forum. I also have my feelings on whether homosexuality is a choice but, again, that isn't something I care to go into a lengthy debate over.

However, the flip side of all this is my rights as a Christian. I don't have the right to try to force everyone to live according to God's law, and I wouldn't want to even if I could. But I do have the right to teach my children according to my beliefs, and I won't stand by and see good, Christian parents dragged through the mud as hatemongerers and bigots for teaching that homosexuality is a sin any more than I'll stand by and see my gay friends verbally accosted because of their beliefs. As we've already well established in this thread, teaching certain human behaviors as sin is not the same as teaching intolerance or hatred. If it was, we'd be having this same conversation about any number of other people because there are many legal and socially acceptable behaviors that are taught as sins in the Bible and parents (and Sunday School teachers) are teaching children about those behaviors just as they're teaching them about homosexuality. Are we to ask that parents stop teaching their children that homosexuality is a sin? Anyone who is a Christian who believes that homosexuality is not condemned in the Bible is simply choosing which parts of the Bible he wishes to accept and which he wishes to ignore. Yet, I don't know very many Christians who harbor a hatred or resentment of gay people. Most Christians I know are more apt to pray for them than belittle them in conversation with others. Exceptions? Sure, there are exceptions to that. But let's make sure we realize there's a distinction between the exception and the norm . . . and that's been my argument all along.

Well said.  I am SO reluctant to join political arguments and yes, I am not a literalist, so I'm one of those bad Christians I suppose.  I have yet to see one friend give all his worldly possessions to strangers and we can go into the litany of laws proclaimed by the Bible that are conveniently glossed over.  But this is, bottom line, a Constitutional issue and when it comes to that... the Bible is not the source.  Sorry, it's not.

[101stDad]

And an addendum to my comments:

This is another one of those areas where the federal government is way over reaching.  Marriage is a state issue, not a federal issue.  Marriage is regulated by each individual state.  The feds have no business getting in the middle of it. 

[murfvol]

It seems there are a couple of thoughts in this thread so I'll do my part to muddy the waters as best I can.

1) Playing in the NBA is a job. People I work with have the right to have pretty much whatever sex life they want, but it's considered bad form to detail exploits at the office. That having been said saying "I'm gay" wouldn't raise more eyebrows than saying "I like Hawaiian style pizza". Both are immaterial to an individual's ability to do the job.

2) I do NOT know all the legal ins and outs (no pun intended), but I do think unmarried people get hosed on a lot of things. Why should married people get breaks on insurance while single people pay full price? That's not right. I think a lot of things go way beyond gay rights. I'd like to hear a discussion of what gay/single/whatever people can't do (including tax deductions) that married people can. Let's deal with specifics.

***It should be noted I'm a Christian. Why? I'm a horrible guy who needs to change. I have scoreboard on no one when it comes to being good. No one. I did what I wanted to do and never found happiness. Based on personal experience I've got to say the things listed as sins end up bringing temporary pleasure, but long term pain. I haven't tried every sin, but 100% of the ones I have yielded that result. In the end I got no benefit from sin.

Romans 6:21-23 sums it up pretty well. Saying some things are sins doesn't mean I hate people. It means I don't want anyone to experience the emptiness I have.

"What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

As an aside I think we're all predisposed to struggle with certain things, but we don't have to give into those. I have friends who can drink in moderation. I can't. I also think it is key to differentiate between temptation and sin. I might be tempted to attempt to seduce every hot woman I see
, but I don't have to do that. There's also forgiveness. I mess up all the time, but when I do I try to confess. Christians are messed up people who need to change, not perfect folks cruising through life.

[Quasi EVol]

And an addendum to my comments:

This is another one of those areas where the federal government is way over reaching.  Marriage is a state issue, not a federal issue.  Marriage is regulated by each individual state.  The feds have no business getting in the middle of it. 

How'd the last states rights issue turn out?  I think we came in 2nd place on that one!

[VinnieVOL]

Again, you've used one of the favorite tactics of the intolerant left.  You can't understand that MOST people who don't fall on your side can actually differentiate between the sin  and the sinner.  Homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible that Christianity bePfftlieves in.  That doesn't mean that we "hate" those who practice homosexuality.  I don't hate anybody, except maybe Kliempsein fans.  

Yep, and watch how any media figure who speaks up as being opposed to that lifestyle is shouted down and even fired.  "tolerance".  Pfft

[101stDad]

How'd the last states rights issue turn out?  I think we came in 2nd place on that one!

You can come back with all the smart ass answers that you want, but the fact is that marriage is not a fed issue.  Never has been.  It is an issue that is handled by the individual states.  Rules and regs differ by states. 

[SmokeyJoe]

well we all know Tebow is gay

.

[Quasi EVol]

You can come back with all the smart ass answers that you want, but the fact is that marriage is not a fed issue.  Never has been.  It is an issue that is handled by the individual states.  Rules and regs differ by states. 

Smart ass answers?  I've seen little else posted from you on this thread.  Later, hater.

[BanditVol]

Being morally opposed to a .lifestyle does not unilaterally equate hatred.  And all Christian groups aren't teaching their kids to go out and bully gay peers.  Why don't you go ahead and lop us all in with the Wetboro crowd.  Lol, good grief.

This.  Homosexuality is a sin (if acted on) according to the Bible.  So is adultery, lying, stealing, murder, etc.  Christians are not supposed to hate those people, any more than they hate their fellow Christians.  You know who the sinners are?  Everyone.  The Bible says that ALL have fallen short of the glory of God. 

So, hate the sin, not the sin, not the sinner.

But by no means say that sin is okay either.  And to me, those wanting to legalize gay marriage are seeking a legitimacy through the law that those who think their actions wrong deny them.  Just my opinion....I personally don't see any need for gay marriage.  All the other things you discuss...inheritance, life insurance, etc, could be achieved through a form of legal adoption. 

But at the end of the day, I am not sure it matters that much one way or the other.  But to me, homosexuality is a sin and I won't change that belief no matter what legislation is passed.