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Author Topic: Jason Collins: The first openly gay NBA player  (Read 47790 times)
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Clockwork Orange
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« on: April 29, 2013, 05:38:05 EDT »

Is there another openly gay male athlete in major professional sports? I can't think of one but I could be wrong.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/magazine/news/20130429/jason-collins-gay-nba-player/?sct=hp_t11_a1&eref=sihp
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Creek Walker
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« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2013, 05:59:04 EDT »

(Not aimed at you, but at the media circus that will surely follow.)

My response is, "Who cares?!?"
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Clockwork Orange
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« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2013, 06:01:58 EDT »

(Not aimed at you, but at the media circus that will surely follow.)

My response is, "Who cares?!?"

You don't think this is significant in light of the cultural shift in the US, the legislation and court cases re: marriage equality and DADT, and the uber-macho testosterone-driven nature of professional sports? I think this is a pivotal event in a number of ways, both within and beyond sports.
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RIPLEYVOL
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« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2013, 07:58:26 EDT »

How do you thing his teammates feel about it...Hell, they have been naked in front of him....
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Clockwork Orange
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« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2013, 08:25:39 EDT »

How do you thing his teammates feel about it...Hell, they have been naked in front of him....

Yep, and apparently he never made moves on any of them. So their egos are probably a bit bruised. 

FWIW, I think we can be reasonably sure that most NBA players have had a gay teammate at one time or another in their playing careers. Collins is just the first guy with the balls to walk through the door and be open about being gay in a workplace that's quite homophobic.
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Creek Walker
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« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2013, 09:06:35 EDT »

You don't think this is significant in light of the cultural shift in the US, the legislation and court cases re: marriage equality and DADT, and the uber-macho testosterone-driven nature of professional sports? I think this is a pivotal event in a number of ways, both within and beyond sports.

I don't put any thought into the significance of it because I truly don't care. I couldn't care less about what someone's sexual preference is and find it absurd that we, as a nation, are so obsessed with something that involves less than 10 percent of the population.
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Clockwork Orange
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« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2013, 09:20:30 EDT »

I don't put any thought into the significance of it because I truly don't care. I couldn't care less about what someone's sexual preference is and find it absurd that we, as a nation, are so obsessed with something that involves less than 10 percent of the population.

It will be an issue as long as they are marginalized and discriminated against; as long as gay kids are so afraid to be who they are that some of them choose to end their life instead; and as long as homosexuals don't have the same rights as heterosexuals do. Just over 10% of the US population in the 1960s was black, but I'd say the national attention that minority's issues got during that time was warranted, and as a nation we are better for it.

Jason Collins coming out publicly as a professional athlete will make a difference, IMO, if only to a small portion of the population who are just a little more inclined to be themselves, or to love their children despite being different. That's worth talking about.
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Volznut
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« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2013, 09:34:20 EDT »

well we all know Tebow is gay
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Creek Walker
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« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2013, 09:38:35 EDT »

It will be an issue as long as they are marginalized and discriminated against; as long as gay kids are so afraid to be who they are that some of them choose to end their life instead; and as long as homosexuals don't have the same rights as heterosexuals do. Just over 10% of the US population in the 1960s was black, but I'd say the national attention that minority's issues got during that time was warranted, and as a nation we are better for it.

Jason Collins coming out publicly as a professional athlete will make a difference, IMO, if only to a small portion of the population who are just a little more inclined to be themselves, or to love their children despite being different. That's worth talking about.

Homosexuality and civil rights is an apples-oranges comparison, IMO. I would further say that the more this issue is shoved down people's throats, the more resentment it is going to create. I know a lot of people who, like me, really don't give a rip about anyone's sexuality, but they're tired of being preached at by the gay-rights movement.

I personally know several gay people and I don't know any who are discriminated against...and I live in a very rural, very backwards community.
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Clockwork Orange
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« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2013, 09:46:23 EDT »

I personally know several gay people and I don't know any who are discriminated against...and I live in a very rural, very backwards community.

Any of them get married in Tennessee? I think if you don't see discrimination against gays, you must have blinders on. It is everywhere and we live in a hotbed of it. Do I think there is a 1-to-1 relationship between the gay rights movement and the civil rights movement of the 1960s? No, I don't, and history plays an awfully big part in that, going back to slavery. But this is still a civil rights movement nonetheless.

The fact remains that an NBA player coming out as gay is, and should be, national news. It's sad that it has to be, but the fact that nobody has ever come out before in the long history of the major sports leagues tells you all you need to know about how tough what he has done must be. It's significant and it matters, whether you think sexual orientation ought to be a national conversation or not.
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« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2013, 09:48:07 EDT »

Homosexuality and civil rights is an apples-oranges comparison, IMO. I would further say that the more this issue is shoved down people's throats, the more resentment it is going to create. I know a lot of people who, like me, really don't give a rip about anyone's sexuality, but they're tired of being preached at by the gay-rights movement.

I personally know several gay people and I don't know any who are discriminated against...and I live in a very rural, very backwards community.

The same thing was said by many in the 60s "I don't give a rip about someone's race but I am tired of being preached at by the civil rights movement". The problem is, they had to shout and they had to be heard by everyone to make the change in the LAWS. If you have no issue, they they're not preaching to you anyway. Gay people do not have the same rights as non-gay, by law, in most states. That in itself is discrimination, whether you personally discriminate or not.
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« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2013, 09:49:41 EDT »

Any of them get married in Tennessee? I think if you don't see discrimination against gays, you must have blinders on. It is everywhere and we live in a hotbed of it. Do I think there is a 1-to-1 relationship between the gay rights movement and the civil rights movement of the 1960s? No, I don't, and history plays an awfully big part in that, going back to slavery. But this is still a civil rights movement nonetheless.

The fact remains that an NBA player coming out as gay is, and should be, national news. It's sad that it has to be, but the fact that nobody has ever come out before in the long history of the major sports leagues tells you all you need to know about how tough what he has done must be. It's significant and it matters, whether you think sexual orientation ought to be a national conversation or not.

It is big news. The sports world can be harsh to someone like that. Of course there are other gay people in male sports. I wonder if they will have the courage to come out and hurt their career, because it will. Collins is pretty much near the end of his career.
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Creek Walker
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« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2013, 09:56:22 EDT »

Volznut, there was a moral demand for the civil rights movement. We, as society, were treating people differently simply because of who they were — something they had absolutely no control over. I don't see any stories about anyone who is gay being forced to attend a separate school, drink from a separate water fountain, sit at the back of the bus, etc.

Now, if you fellas see marriage as a civil rights issue then, yes, I'll concede to you that gays are being discriminated against. I don't see it that way. I do not see gay marriage bans as discriminatory.

With that said, I personally do not care whether gay marriage is legalized or if the bans are upheld and I think the Christian factions who are fighting so hard against it are wasting their time, money and energy when they could be putting those resources to much better use. But beyond the issue of marriage, I challenge anyone (especially you, CO, if you're going to accuse me of looking at the issue with blinders on) to show me where wholesale discrimination is taking place. Are gay people occasionally singled out and mistreated because of who they are? Absolutely. And that should be punished accordingly. But that happens in all walks of life, not just with gay people. Spend time in any elementary school and you'll learn real quick that we have, at our very core, a tendency towards cruelty and bullying is an equal opportunity tendency. Its targets aren't just gay people, they're anyone who is perceived as different.
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« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2013, 10:04:04 EDT »

CW, That's the thing. People who are anti-gay don't understand that gay people don't have a control over it either. It's not a "lifestyle choice", gay people are gay, they cannot be straight. And many hide it for fear or discrimination, so we don't even know how many people are facing this. You can't hide if you're black or brown. As far as a moral demand, there is a moral demand for it now, and it will increase more and more, as more heterosexual people join their fight.

Of course Gay marriage ban is discriminatory, it is the definition of it. You are targeting a group of adults and saying they can't marry because of their sexual preference.  Is being gay illegal? No. Then why would two gay adults marrying be illegal? It is a discriminatory practice. The easy way to avoid the issue is to say "I don't care about the issue", but if you don't care then you don't care about equal rights for all people, which is what this country is/should be about.

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Clockwork Orange
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« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2013, 10:07:53 EDT »

Volznut, there was a moral demand for the civil rights movement. We, as society, were treating people differently simply because of who they were — something they had absolutely no control over. I don't see any stories about anyone who is gay being forced to attend a separate school, drink from a separate water fountain, sit at the back of the bus, etc.

Now, if you fellas see marriage as a civil rights issue then, yes, I'll concede to you that gays are being discriminated against. I don't see it that way. I do not see gay marriage bans as discriminatory.

Sure! They are free to marry people of the opposite sex just like anyone else, right? Their happiness . . . and their rights to hospital visitation, inheritance, family health benefits, adoption, etc. . . . should be of no regard to us.

With that said, I personally do not care whether gay marriage is legalized or if the bans are upheld and I think the Christian factions who are fighting so hard against it are wasting their time, money and energy when they could be putting those resources to much better use. But beyond the issue of marriage, I challenge anyone (especially you, CO, if you're going to accuse me of looking at the issue with blinders on) to show me where wholesale discrimination is taking place. Are gay people occasionally singled out and mistreated because of who they are? Absolutely. And that should be punished accordingly. But that happens in all walks of life, not just with gay people. Spend time in any elementary school and you'll learn real quick that we have, at our very core, a tendency towards cruelty and bullying is an equal opportunity tendency. Its targets aren't just gay people, they're anyone who is perceived as different.

This is tending toward being awfully loungeish but there is systematic, learned, bigotry toward gays in this country, largely stemming from religious groups. Kids are literally taught that homosexuality is an abomination, and this is not from some fringe minority group . . . nor is it random. This is from the majority population in the USA. Acts of bullying and abuse toward homosexual kids are bred and taught indirectly, if not explicitly, by the "morals" millions of kids in this country are taught by their parents, sunday school teachers, and other irresponsible people in their lives. It is NOT the same as other bullying because they are targeting based on what they have been taught at home, not based on some stupid playground jackassery.
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« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2013, 10:13:00 EDT »

Wait...you're saying that Sunday School teachers, ministers and parents who teach their children the Bible are the problem here?

Wow. Okay.

Talking civil rights and demonizing people who are exercising their freedom of religion all in the same breath is the height of irony.

Growing up, my parents made me memorize the 10 Commandments by the first grade. And I didn't go around punching anyone who took God's name in vain, who didn't go to church on Sunday, who lied, etc. Imagine that.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 10:14:46 EDT by Creek Walker » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2013, 10:18:46 EDT »

Wait...you're saying that Sunday School teachers, ministers and parents who teach their children the Bible are the problem here?

Wow. Okay.

Talking civil rights and demonizing people who are exercising their freedom of religion all in the same breath is the height of irony.

People who teach their children that other human beings are abominations, are not deserving of equal rights, and ought to be "fixed' . . . yes, they are a big part of the problem. I don't want to extend this to teaching the Bible wholesale, and it's you, not I, who said that.

Free exercise can be perfectly legal and still be wrong. If one teaches his kids that gays are something to hate or pity . . . then he is wrong. If he uses the Bible as justification for it, then he's wrong and ignorant on top of that. This is the case whether his right to do so is supported by the constitution or not (and it is).
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« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2013, 10:19:18 EDT »

Sure! They are free to marry people of the opposite sex just like anyone else, right? Their happiness . . . and their rights to hospital visitation, inheritance, family health benefits, adoption, etc. . . . should be of no regard to us.

This is tending toward being awfully loungeish but there is systematic, learned, bigotry toward gays in this country, largely stemming from religious groups. Kids are literally taught that homosexuality is an abomination, and this is not from some fringe minority group . . . nor is it random. This is from the majority population in the USA. Acts of bullying and abuse toward homosexual kids are bred and taught indirectly, if not explicitly, by the "morals" millions of kids in this country are taught by their parents, sunday school teachers, and other irresponsible people in their lives. It is NOT the same as other bullying because they are targeting based on what they have been taught at home, not based on some stupid playground jackassery.


Being morally opposed to a lifestyle does not unilaterally equate hatred.  And all Christian groups aren't teaching their kids to go out and bully gay peers.  Why don't you go ahead and lop us all in with the Wetboro crowd.  Lol, good grief.
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« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2013, 10:20:30 EDT »

Wait...you're saying that Sunday School teachers, ministers and parents who teach their children the Bible are the problem here?

Wow. Okay.

Talking civil rights and demonizing people who are exercising their freedom of religion all in the same breath is the height of irony.

Growing up, my parents made me memorize the 10 Commandments by the first grade. And I didn't go around punching anyone who took God's name in vain, who didn't go to church on Sunday, who lied, etc. Imagine that.

That's great. Where in the 10 commandments does it teach you to hate Gay people?

If exercising one's freedom of religion teaches hatred of a group of people then YES it is a problem. No one is saying everyone does it. Look at the Muslim religion. Do you think that every muslim teaches their kids to hate jews and Christians? No. However there are those that do, and hide behind their religion.  Is that a problem? Yeah....I'd say so.

Freedom has its limitations. Your rights end when you invade on others rights. Gay people want the same rights as everyone else... not more. That shouldn't be a problem for anyone, and if someone teaches their kids to discriminate, hiding behind religion, I find it despicable.

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Clockwork Orange
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« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2013, 10:22:34 EDT »

Growing up, my parents made me memorize the 10 Commandments by the first grade. And I didn't go around punching anyone who took God's name in vain, who didn't go to church on Sunday, who lied, etc. Imagine that.

I'm glad to hear that. I was raised in church and I didn't either, not that your childhood or mine effectively sum up the practice of discrimination against gays nationwide.

But I'll bet we both played "smear the queer" on the playground. And I'll bet it's still played.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 10:24:07 EDT by Clockwork Orange » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2013, 10:22:51 EDT »


Being morally opposed to a lifestyle does not unilaterally equate hatred.  And all Christian groups aren't teaching their kids to go out and bully gay peers.  Why don't you go ahead and lop us all in with the Wetboro crowd.  Lol, good grief.

That isn't what he is remotely doing.

One can be morally opposed to whatever they want. That's their morals though... once you make it law, it becomes much more than that. MUCH more.



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« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2013, 10:23:40 EDT »


Being morally opposed to a lifestyle does not unilaterally equate hatred.  And all Christian groups aren't teaching their kids to go out and bully gay peers.  Why don't you go ahead and lop us all in with the Wetboro crowd.  Lol, good grief.

You are both putting words in my mouth.
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« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2013, 10:24:31 EDT »

Wait...you're saying that Sunday School teachers, ministers and parents who teach their children the Bible are the problem here?

Wow. Okay.

Talking civil rights and demonizing people who are exercising their freedom of religion all in the same breath is the height of irony.

Growing up, my parents made me memorize the 10 Commandments by the first grade. And I didn't go around punching anyone who took God's name in vain, who didn't go to church on Sunday, who lied, etc. Imagine that.


"Tolerance is wonderful, as long as you agree with me."  
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Clockwork Orange
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« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2013, 10:26:39 EDT »


"Tolerance is wonderful, as long as you agree with me."  

Easy for you to say. You are married to the person you love and have all the legal rights that entails.

And by the way, let me throw out there that I find this highly disappointing. I think you both know me by now, and you know that I am not who you are painting me to be. But it's convenient to do so because it allows you to dismiss everything that I have said without acknowledging its truth.
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« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2013, 10:26:44 EDT »


Being morally opposed to a lifestyle does not unilaterally equate hatred.  

Exactly. And that's the point the opposite side of this debate has difficulty wrapping their minds around. Any Christian who is truly teaching their kids the Bible will teach them that homosexuality is a sin. They will also teach them that God is love, that it isn't our job to judge people according to their sins and, although it isn't written explicitly in the Bible, "God hates the sin, not the sinner."

And, CO, your argument was that the MAJORITY of people in the US are being taught by irresponsible people like Sunday School teachers that homosexuality is an abomination, and that in turn is what leads to bullying. . It's pretty easy for anyone to take a Bible and build the argument that homosexuality is a sin. It's not very easy to take a Bible and build an argument that homosexuals should be targets of abuse or hatred. Are there people who teach their kids that gay people should be hated? Yes there are. But to lump all Sunday School teachers who are teaching children about the Bible into a wholesale group is nonsense.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 10:28:25 EDT by Creek Walker » Logged
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