I was just thinking.....

[tnflower]

Look how long it took Ga to get where they are today, and look how long it took SC. I can't count the times I read that their coaches were on the hot seat. Yet, they stayed and finally built good programs. Is it so wrong to think it will take UT some time to build a good program again? Maybe we're expecting too much of Dooley too soon. I wus jest thanking........whut y'all thank?

[Black Diamond Vol]

OTOH, Ron Zook was fired at UF with a three-year record of 23-15, including a win at then #4 Tennessee, 2 wins over UGA (including one in the year they won the SECC), at LSU in the year they won the NC, and at their in-state rival FSU.  Dooley is 14-15 in 2+ years at UT, and his next "big" win will be his first.  Just the word "Zook" is a punchline in SEC country these days, but his record was VASTLY superior to Derek Dooley's to this point.  Now granted, Zook inherited a more stable situation than Dooley- although like Dooley he did have to rebuild a somewhat depleted roster (corch herban won a NC in 96 with mostly Zook's players).  No, their situations aren't exactly comparable, but is it too much to ask of Dooley to win just one game that matters?  Just ONE.  That's all I ask.  

As for the comparisons you made, Richt won the SECC in his 2nd year at UGA, and then won another 3 years later.  He bought himself a lot of time very early on.  And yet he was STILL on the hot seat going into last season, when he was saved by the easiest schedule since the SEC expanded in 92.  If they had drawn our schedule last year (at bammer, LSU, at Arky), Richt would be out of a job right now.  That's a fact.  

USC?  That's an apples and oranges comparison.  They have zero history in football, and their fanbase was more than happy to wait out a bunch of 6-6 and 7-5 season until Spurrier got his feet under him.  We have no such patience.  And frankly, we shouldn't.  With our budget and our facilities, we should demand better.  

Like Zook, I think Dooley has rebuilt our roster.  But I have no faith he can take them any farther than he already has.  The good news is, our next coach will not be left with an empty cupboard- so if we make the right hire, I believe they can win right away.  And I thank Dooley for that.

[RockyMtnVol]

We won ONE SEC game last year.  In overtime.  Over VANDERBILT.  We are a DOORMAT.  The epic collapse against FL was no fluke - we did the same against every respectable opponent last year.  How deep must we sink before finally letting go of the "right the ship" metaphor?

[ChattanoogaVol]

OTOH, Ron Zook was fired at UF with a three-year record of 23-15, including a win at then #4 Tennessee, 2 wins over UGA (including one in the year they won the SECC), at LSU in the year they won the NC, and at their in-state rival FSU.  Dooley is 14-15 in 2+ years at UT, and his next "big" win will be his first.  Just the word "Zook" is a punchline in SEC country these days, but his record was VASTLY superior to Derek Dooley's to this point.  Now granted, Zook inherited a more stable situation than Dooley- although like Dooley he did have to rebuild a somewhat depleted roster (corch herban won a NC in 96 with mostly Zook's players).  No, their situations aren't exactly comparable, but is it too much to ask of Dooley to win just one game that matters?  Just ONE.  That's all I ask.  

As for the comparisons you made, Richt won the SECC in his 2nd year at UGA, and then won another 3 years later.  He bought himself a lot of time very early on.  And yet he was STILL on the hot seat going into last season, when he was saved by the easiest schedule since the SEC expanded in 92.  If they had drawn our schedule last year (at bammer, LSU, at Arky), Richt would be out of a job right now.  That's a fact.  

USC?  That's an apples and oranges comparison.  They have zero history in football, and their fanbase was more than happy to wait out a bunch of 6-6 and 7-5 season until Spurrier got his feet under him.  We have no such patience.  And frankly, we shouldn't.  With our budget and our facilities, we should demand better.  

Like Zook, I think Dooley has rebuilt our roster.  But I have no faith he can take them any farther than he already has.  The good news is, our next coach will not be left with an empty cupboard- so if we make the right hire, I believe they can win right away.  And I thank Dooley for that.

AGREE 100%
 

[ChattanoogaVol]

We won ONE SEC game last year.  In overtime.  Over VANDERBILT.  We are a DOORMAT.  The epic collapse against FL was no fluke - we did the same against every respectable opponent last year.  How deep must we sink before finally letting go of the "right the ship" metaphor?

AGREE AS WELL

 

[BanditVol]

 Now granted, Zook inherited a more stable situation than Dooley- although like Dooley he did have to rebuild a somewhat depleted roster (corch herban won a NC in 96 with mostly Zook's players).  No, their situations aren't exactly comparable

You right, but we were way weaker in 2010 than UF was in 2002.  They had just played us for the SEC East title and lost, and it was widely expected that the winner would easily overcome LSU and go on to face Miami in the Rose Bowl.  We were 7-6 in 2009 and the DOUBLE attrition from the Fulmer and Lane eras was worse than anything Zook faced.

Like Zook, I think Dooley has rebuilt our roster.  But I have no faith he can take them any farther than he already has.  The good news is, our next coach will not be left with an empty cupboard- so if we make the right hire, I believe they can win right away.  And I thank Dooley for that.

Ah, this is a key point.  I don't think he has sufficiently rebuilt our roster.  I have had several opposing fans comment to me that they think we need a few more players. 

And it's really convenient to point to Florida and Alabama.  Why not bring up Nebraska or Michigan, other prominent programs that have gone through a series of coaches.  Granted they are both top 25 programs now, but neither has sniffed the top 5 in quite some time, and were painfully bad early in the rebuilding process.

[Black Diamond Vol]

You right, but we were way weaker in 2010 than UF was in 2002.  They had just played us for the SEC East title and lost, and it was widely expected that the winner would easily overcome LSU and go on to face Miami in the Rose Bowl.  We were 7-6 in 2009 and the DOUBLE attrition from the Fulmer and Lane eras was worse than anything Zook faced.

Yes, I readily concede that point, and as I posted, I have adjusted my expectations accordingly.  I just want ONE meaningful win this year.  Zook had at least 5 in his three years, I just want one.  Again, is that asking too much?

Ah, this is a key point.  I don't think he has sufficiently rebuilt our roster.  I have had several opposing fans comment to me that they think we need a few more players.

A few more players?  EVERY team could use a few more players.  Even bammer fans think they could use some help in the secondary this year.  With the 85 scholarship limit, nobody is going to have a perfect roster anymore.  I believed before the game, and still believe after that we had sufficient manpower and talent to beat UF.  The first 40 minutes are proof of that.  Right before halftime, we were dominating in every statistical category.  The 2nd half meltdown didn't look like a matter of physical fatigue to me.  It looked like a defense that couldn't adjust when UF switched to the zone read blocking scheme.  It looked like an offense that panicked and abandoned the run too early, and a QB that got frustrated and started locking on one receiver.  A few more players?  We have 85 on scholarship for the first time in a while.  Against UF, it could've been 185, and we'd have still lost.  That game was a breakdown in coaching, period.

And it's really convenient to point to Florida and Alabama.  Why not bring up Nebraska or Michigan, other prominent programs that have gone through a series of coaches.  Granted they are both top 25 programs now, but neither has sniffed the top 5 in quite some time, and were painfully bad early in the rebuilding process.

I pointed to Florida because when they hired Zook, they passed on proven guys like Stoops and Shanahan (or were turned down by them, it really doesn't matter) and subsequently raided the Dollar General.  Just like UT.  And when they declared an end to the moneyball experiment and finally shelled out the big bucks for corch herban, they started winning championships again.  

I didn't even bring up bammer, but since you did, just look at their post-Stallings hires.  Dubose and Shula were straight out of the bargain bin.  I won't even discuss Franchione or Price, because they didn't stick around long enough to prove themselves one way or the other (much like Kiffin).  It wasn't until they went to Saban's house with stacks of cash and made it rain that they finally turned it around.  

This is the SEC.  In this league, you can't drop a grand on a '96 Hyndai and expect to drive it to the top of the mountain.  You want to win, you have to spend money.  LOTS of money.  People thought bammer was crazy to pay Saban $4M a year.  Doesn't look so crazy anymore, does it?

As for the other programs you mention, is it really fair to compare what it takes to win in the SEC to what it takes elsewhere at this point?  That's like comparing A-ball to the Majors.

[BanditVol]

A few more players?  EVERY team could use a few more players.

Absolutely, yes, without any doubt.  Dooley has done well enough recruiting, but he has yet to crack the top 10.  Lane did, but that class was destroyed by attrition.   All of Zook's recruiting classes were top ten. We are nowhere near the level Urbie had when he came to UF.  And without doubt, we need a lot more than bammer, lol.

This is the SEC.  In this league, you can't drop a couple grand on a '96 Hyndai and expect to drive it to the top of the mountain.  You want to win, you have to spend money.  LOTS of money.  People thought bammer was crazy to pay Saban $4M a year.  Doesn't look so crazy anymore, does it?

I don't disagree, but bammer was also much better stacked than we are now when saban arrived there.  Shula was actually a decent recruiter.   

And who do you think we are going to get?   Do you think a top coach would actually come to UT in the situation we are in?  How are we going to pay for it?  We are still paying off Fulmer and even Hamilton, and rumor has it that Dooley's buyout is $4 million.   

I will readily concede that if now is the time to make the move, then maybe the money can be taken care of, but seriously, how many former national championship coaches are out there?  Bobby Bowden?  Fulmer?  Trestle?   That coach that won at Miami in 2001 whose name I forget? 

We could also go the route of UF and hire an up and coming coach from a smaller program, but it's premature to talk about it.

 We are only 4 games into the season and it still needs to play out. 

If and when we do make a change, we had best have a really good coach lined up.  We have Dooley because no one else wanted it.

[BanditVol]

This is the SEC.  In this league, you can't drop a grand on a '96 Hyndai and expect to drive it to the top of the mountain.  You want to win, you have to spend money.  LOTS of money.  People thought bammer was crazy to pay Saban $4M a year.  Doesn't look so crazy anymore, does it?

As for the other programs you mention, is it really fair to compare what it takes to win in the SEC to what it takes elsewhere at this point?  That's like comparing A-ball to the Majors.

I almost forgot to address this.   Just because something worked for one school, doesn't mean it will work for all, and it really doesnt matter where the school is.

As for saban, he is in fact a great coach.   He has in fact, by the numbers, recruited better than any coach in history, period dot.  It's truly amazing.   Guess what other coach even came close (but was still far behind saban)?  Pete Carroll.
And we know how that ended.   

 

[Black Diamond Vol]

Absolutely, yes, without any doubt.  Dooley has done well enough recruiting, but he has yet to crack the top 10.  Lane did, but that class was destroyed by attrition.   All of Zook's recruiting classes were top ten. We are nowhere near the level Urbie had when he came to UF.  And without doubt, we need a lot more than bammer, lol.

And you know what has to happen to get a top ten class?  You have to win big games.  You have to convince those recruits that you're going to be here for the next 3-4 years.  Right now, NO ONE believes Dooley will be around beyond 2013 (at the longest).  And opposing coaches are going to beat us over the head with that on the recruiting trail until we start winning some meaningful games.  

But I wasn't just referring to recruiting rankings.  It's not all about chasing five stars.  I believe our combination of talent and experience is second only the Uga in the East.  Bray was just a 3 star- but clearly he has much more talent than that.  So much talent, in fact, that he was being talked about as the #1 overall draft pick before the season started.  What do you think a Saban or Richt could've done with a talent like that?  Much more than Dooley has, I'm guessing.  We have talent, experience, and depth along both lines.  That's HUGE in this league.  We have what should be the best WR corps in America.  We have four experienced, playmaking linebackers, and both of our specialists are 3rd year guys who were rated #1 at their positions coming out of high school.  We returned 20 STARTERS this year.  Once upon a time, we'd be talking national titles with a roster like this, rather than just hoping to get bowl-eligible.

I don't disagree, but bammer was also much better stacked than we are now when saban arrived there.  Shula was actually a decent recruiter.

Bammer was better stacked in Saban's FIRST year than we are now?  Completely disagree with that.  Go back and look at their 2007 roster and compare it to ours.

And who do you think we are going to get?   Do you think a top coach would actually come to UT in the situation we are in?  How are we going to pay for it?  We are still paying off Fulmer and even Hamilton, and rumor has it that Dooley's buyout is $4 million.  

I will readily concede that if now is the time to make the move, then maybe the money can be taken care of, but seriously, how many former national championship coaches are out there?  Bobby Bowden?  Fulmer?  Trestle?   That coach that won at Miami in 2001 whose name I forget?

How do we know who will and won't come here unless we're willing to pay market value?  You pay minimum wage in this league, you're going to get what you pay for.  I'll bet if we were to flash $4-5M around, we'd get some interested suitors.  I don't require a coach with a NC on his resume, just one that has proven he can win some big games.  Peterson.  Patterson.  Riley.  Guys like that.

And I know it's easy to sit here on a message board and theoretically spend other peoples' money.  But our athletic department's fiscal woes aren't going to improve until we start winning.  Just win, and donations will go up, ticket sales will go up, and all will be right at UT again.  It wasn't long ago that UT was one of the top 5 most profitable ADs in America.  Then we started losing football games hand over first, and now we're in a hole.  It's nothing that winning can't cure, but you have to make an investment in winning.  

[ReVOLver]

Dooley has provided no evidence that he is capable of winning at the level that Tennessee should win. If anybody can refute this point, feel free to do so.

[BanditVol]

Dooley has provided no evidence that he is capable of winning at the level that Tennessee should win. If anybody can refute this point, feel free to do so.

Agree 100%!  But I have to note extunuating circumstances and that the season is not over yet.  But it will be eventually, and then we will know.

Also, to support your point, the LSU game in 2010 was a complete debacle and I do in fact blame the coaching. 

But hopefully we learned from that and can move on.