Jon Gruden

[10EC]

What was the question?

[PirateVOL]

What was the question?

what was the dream?

[TheRealOrange]

What was the question?

Who is the Vols fans' latest unrealistic head coaching prospect?    I'd like to think that someone like Gruden would come to Knoxville, but I have a hard time seeing it.  Perhaps times have changed enough, but look at history: Dooley, Kiffin, Fulmer, Majors, Battle, Dickey, McDonald, Wyatt, Robinson, Neyland.........  Coach Majors is the biggest name head coach to come to the Vols from another school/team, IMO, although Bowden Wyatt came "home" too after head coaching elsewhere.  Then there was Kiffin.  The others except for Dooley, I believe, were assistants when they were hired, including the two most successful the Vols have ever had -- Neyland and Fulmer.  Perhaps Hart will turn things on their head and get a non-Vol big name as head coach.  Then again, I am not adverse to hiring a really good assistant or smaller school head coach.  Remember, Dooley was not very successful as a head coach at La Tech, and that's why he was such a shock when he was named as head coach (at least to me).

[VinnieVOL]

Can't wait to see these boards if it were to happen.  

You guys do know that it is a fact he's interested, right?  Not saying it will happen, but to dismiss it as a dream or fantasy is incorrect.

[SmokeyJoe]

Vinnie is it fact or more internet hearsay... That he is interested?

[volmeister]

Can't wait to see these boards if it were to happen.  

You guys do know that it is a fact he's interested, right?  Not saying it will happen, but to dismiss it as a dream or fantasy is incorrect.

I agree with Vinnie.  For some reason UT fans have this huge inferiority complex and just assume that we can never get anybody that is better than what we have , no matter how bad the status quo is.  Fact is, we have never opened up the check book for anybody, not ever.  Why is it that a small University in a small southern state like Alabama can pay out the butt for a coach but we can't?  

[VinnieVOL]

Believe it or not, there are credible people on the internet.  They're not all clueless guessers, like us.  

[SmokeyJoe]

Lol. Ok I'm all for it!  Hoping mama Gruden is ready to come back home!

[Cobbvol]

Hiring Gruden may happen. Just knowing the facts that he makes $4.5-$5.0 million with ESPN, UT has never paid a coach above $3 million, and it will take $6-10 million to buy out our current staff leaves me with pause.

[TheRealOrange]

I agree with Vinnie.  For some reason UT fans have this huge inferiority complex and just assume that we can never get anybody that is better than what we have , no matter how bad the status quo is.  Fact is, we have never opened up the check book for anybody, not ever.  Why is it that a small University in a small southern state like Alabama can pay out the butt for a coach but we can't?  

I don't really see it as an inferiority complex.  I just think that UT is a unique program and I believe that not many coaches would see it as a job that will ever lead to anything else.  That is, it seems to me that UT's best bet is to find someone who already likes Knoxville, or likely will fall in love, and wants to stay there for good (not jump to a "dream" job like Kiffin).  Sort of like a Pearl for football, but someone who won't mess up.    The UTAD could offer more money and still lose someone not married to the area.  And, as much as I hate to admit it, places like South Bend and Tusk O'Loser can draw coaches with program history much better than UT can.  Perhaps paying more than actual value is what it will take.  And, at least Gruden and his wife have lived in Knoxville and know (and perhaps like) the area already.  And, I think the Vols can get much better than what they have now regardless of whether that person has head coaching experience, and certainly not head coaching experience at a major university or the NFL.  I still do not know what Hamilton's attraction to Dooley was, absent acting in panic mode.  Who out there would see Tennessee as their "dream" job and would stay?  Is there somenone like that out there?  I don't know, but having a head coach with that mentality, as well as a solid coaching history, would sure be nice.  

[TheRealOrange]

Can't wait to see these boards if it were to happen.  

You guys do know that it is a fact he's interested, right?  Not saying it will happen, but to dismiss it as a dream or fantasy is incorrect.

I haven't read that he is interested, only that UT is interested in him and there may have been "unofficial" contact.  Then again, I do not read football-related internet sites.  Have credible sources reported that he actually has expressed interest (other than listening to potential offers)? 

[VinnieVOL]

I haven't read that he is interested, only that UT is interested in him and there may have been "unofficial" contact.  Then again, I do not read football-related internet sites.  Have credible sources reported that he actually has expressed interest (other than listening to potential offers)? 

I guess it depends on who you think is credible.  I know Ainge and Basilio have gone on record to say the he's interested.  Hubbs says we're going to make him say no.  Lowe says we're talking... Which leads me to believe there is mutual intetest there.  Actually, Lowe was one of the first big names to go on record with Gruden.

[TheRealOrange]

I guess it depends on who you think is credible.  I know Ainge and Basilio have gone on record to say the he's interested.  Hubbs says we're going to make him say no.  Lowe says we're talking... Which leads me to believe there is mutual intetest there.  Actually, Lowe was one of the first big names to go on record with Gruden.

Cool.  I don't read anything by any of those guys.    I have no doubt that Hart may be making a big push to get him.  If it's true that contact has been made and he is interested, then he'll probably be the next head coach.  If it's true that contact has been made and he is simply listening, then it's still a longshot at best IMO.  I just get the feeling that he would like the glitz and glamor of ESPN or the NFL more than coming back to Knoxville.

[VinnieVOL]

Cool.  I don't read anything by any of those guys.    I have no doubt that Hart may be making a big push to get him.  If it's true that contact has been made and he is interested, then he'll probably be the next head coach.  If it's true that contact has been made and he is simply listening, then it's still a longshot at best IMO.  I just get the feeling that he would like the glitz and glamor of ESPN or the NFL more than coming back to Knoxville.

In my heart I have doubts it will happen.  But I want to believe.

[VinnieVOL]

Ainge even said there was interest in 2008, but that there were "roadblocks" that he wouldn't name.  He said those roadblocks are now gone.

[volmeister]

I don't really see it as an inferiority complex.  I just think that UT is a unique program and I believe that not many coaches would see it as a job that will ever lead to anything else.  That is, it seems to me that UT's best bet is to find someone who already likes Knoxville, or likely will fall in love, and wants to stay there for good (not jump to a "dream" job like Kiffin).  Sort of like a Pearl for football, but someone who won't mess up.    The UTAD could offer more money and still lose someone not married to the area.  And, as much as I hate to admit it, places like South Bend and Tusk O'Loser can draw coaches with program history much better than UT can.  Perhaps paying more than actual value is what it will take.  And, at least Gruden and his wife have lived in Knoxville and know (and perhaps like) the area already.  And, I think the Vols can get much better than what they have now regardless of whether that person has head coaching experience, and certainly not head coaching experience at a major university or the NFL.  I still do not know what Hamilton's attraction to Dooley was, absent acting in panic mode.  Who out there would see Tennessee as their "dream" job and would stay?  Is there somenone like that out there?  I don't know, but having a head coach with that mentality, as well as a solid coaching history, would sure be nice.  

When Notre Dame and Bama hired Saban and Kelly they were as down as down can be. Somebody please explain to me why South Bend Indiana and Tuscaloosa Al are more glamorous destinations than Knoxville TN?   Why does a coach have to be "in love with Knoxville" yet be willing to move to outposts like South Bend or Tuscaloosa? I lived in Tuscaloosa for 2 years. if there is a bigger crap hole in this neck of the woods, I would like to see it.

[BanditVol]

 And, as much as I hate to admit it, places like South Bend and Tusk O'Loser can draw coaches with program history much better than UT can.

FIFY 

  [/quote]  I still do not know what Hamilton's attraction to Dooley was, absent acting in panic mode.   [/quote]

Yes, you nailed it IMO.

On another note, I don't think Dooley is played yet, and I don't think know I'm not the only one.  It doesn't mean that I'm happy with his performance - far from it.  It does mean that, given the situation financially and allowing that we have shown considerable improvement from an almost impossible situation, I am perfectly willing to wait it out and trust Hart to make the right decision at the right time.  Rather than, as occured below, stating that "I want Dooley fired before he gets on the plane" (after a 3 point loss to a tough opponent on their home field  )

If Hart makes a decision tomorrow (which I think is unlikely), or at the end of the season (possible), next season (more likely IMO) or even years down the road after Dooley wins next year's SECC (go ahead and laugh), I am going to be patient and see how it plays out.

We have been through not just two coaching changes, but a bad transition that left a bad taste (the shoddy way Fulmer was let go, the rebellion by the team over such, the contribution of that to Wyoming, etc) and a worse transition with a second horrible hire (mattresses were literally burnt, nuff said -and I mean both Kiffin AND Dooley were horrible hires). 

If and when there is a transition, let's do it right this time.

[VinnieVOL]

FIFY  

    I still do not know what Hamilton's attraction to Dooley was, absent acting in panic mode.  

Yes, you nailed it IMO.

On another note, I don't think Dooley is played yet, and I don't think know I'm not the only one.  It doesn't mean that I'm happy with his performance - far from it.  It does mean that, given the situation financially and allowing that we have shown considerable improvement from an almost impossible situation, I am perfectly willing to wait it out and trust Hart to make the right decision at the right time.  Rather than, as occured below, stating that "I want Dooley fired before he gets on the plane" (after a 3 point loss to a tough opponent on their home field  )

If Hart makes a decision tomorrow (which I think is unlikely), or at the end of the season (possible), next season (more likely IMO) or even years down the road after Dooley wins next year's SECC (go ahead and laugh), I am going to be patient and see how it plays out.

We have been through not just two coaching changes, but a bad transition that left a bad taste (the shoddy way Fulmer was let go, the rebellion by the team over such, the contribution of that to Wyoming, etc) and a worse transition with a second horrible hire (mattresses were literally t, nuff said -and I mean both Kiffin AND Dooley were horrible hires).  

If and when there is a transition, let's do it right this time.

Dooley isn't paid for moral victories.  The "improvement" card is laughable at this point, and I knew that's what you'd say.  "We didn't get beat as bad at the away game I attended" is not a valid reason settle for mediocrity.  I feel bad that the current product on the field is good enough for you.  Obviously this year seems better because Bray is still playing. This is the worst defense in UT history.  Dooley has had plenty of opportunities to beat just ONE team of significance.  The "rightness" of this process will be determined by the level of success of Hart's new hire.  If Kiffin had us where we wanted to be by now, no one would care about how  it was handled.

And once again, money is not of any issue here.  It will cost UT more money if Dooley were to stay.  It doesn't really matter anyway, because Dooley is a goner.

For you to assume Hart will mishandle it just like Hamilton did is not wise, imo.

[10EC]

What was the question?

What I find humorous is that you guys think the original post was intended for anyone else except Lyn.

[TheRealOrange]

It doesn't really matter anyway, because Dooley is a goner.

He probably is, and that proves that this is a very different time than when Johnny came marching home.  I think Dooley took over a program in much more disarray than Majors did, and with equally bad talent.  I also think the SEC is tougher from top to bottom now than it was then, and lower tier programs are certainly much better.  Johnny went 4-7, 5-5-1, 7-5, and 5-6 before finally winning 8 (8-4) in 1981 (got to 8 with a bowl win).  He then promptly went 6-5-1 in 1982 (although the win against bama saved him from too much criticism).  There is no way he could have survived with the demands put on head coaches today, but people put up with his mediocrity because he was a Tennessee favorite son.  I do not think Dooley has what it takes to be an SEC head coach, because it appears that the talent is there to beat some of the better SEC teams (UGA and USC).  I'm sorry, but if you score 44 and 35 respectively against those two teams, you should win.  This is the worst Vols defense I can rememeber, and the ultimate blame goes to Dooley. 

[VolsbHairy]

Dooley isn't paid for moral victories.  The "improvement" card is laughable at this point, and I knew that's what you'd say.  "We didn't get beat as bad at the away game I attended" is not a valid reason settle for mediocrity.  I feel bad that the current product on the field is good enough for you.  Obviously this year seems better because Bray is still playing. This is the worst defense in UT history.  Dooley has had plenty of opportunities to beat just ONE team of significance.  The "rightness" of this process will be determined by the level of success of Hart's new hire.  If Kiffin had us where we wanted to be by now, no one would care about how  it was handled.

And once again, money is not of any issue here.  It will cost UT more money if Dooley were to stay.  It doesn't really matter anyway, because Dooley is a goner.

For you to assume Hart will mishandle it just like Hamilton did is not wise, imo.

100% agree with you Vinnie! In what world is a 0 in the win column against ranked opponents any type pf improvement.   Dooley is costing us more money by the week than it ever will cost UT to get rid of him.  Last time i checked empty seats are not bringing in money!  Call me a dreamer but I have to believe in the Gruden hype.  I believe!!!!

[VinnieVOL]

100% agree with you Vinnie! In what world is a 0 in the win column against ranked opponents any type pf improvement.   Dooley is costing us more money by the week than it ever will cost UT to get rid of him.  Last time i checked empty seats are not bringing in money!  Call me a dreamer but I have to believe in the Gruden hype.  I believe!!!!

This just isn't good enough.  And it's about time the powers that be act like it!  I've disagreed woth Basilio in the past, but I'm with him on this.

[murfvol]

If we had the 60th best defense in the country we'd be in good (relatively speaking) shape. All Dooley had to do is get an average DC. The only question is if Hart made him hire Sunseri. If that's the case we have larger problems.

[Creek Walker]

I'm going to piggyback on what Vinnie has said, because I agree with him on all points. There's mutual interest between UT and Gruden. I think it's unlikely to work out in the end, but it isn't the pipe dream some make it out to be. I was one of those who scoffed at the notion that Gruden would consider UT in the beginning, but I was wrong.

Also, I'm not sure why so many UT fans are convinced that this football program isn't a destination job. I've had more than a few UT fans give me a laundry list of reasons why Tennessee should keep Dooley, and it always comes back to their belief that UT cannot attract a better coach. I LOL'd at a beat writer from the Maryville newspaper who belittled UT fans for daring to believe that Tennessee can lure a top-notch coach to Knoxville. This mindset has only developed over the last four years, and directly from the need of our fans to justify Hamilton's weak hires. Suddenly some fans act as though UT's success began and ended with the '90s. Fulmer's success was great -- maybe unprecedented, all things considered. But Tennessee has been an elite program -- and by elite I mean one of the top five programs in America -- since Neyland arrived on the scene in the '20s. Has anything happened to change that? Certainly this isn't the job it was in the '90s because the college football landscape has changed. As the game evolved during the mid 20th Century Tennessee developed a disadvantage due to its homegrown prep talent. Because there were so few elite programs to choose from, Dickey and Majors and especially Fulmer were able to recruit very well in the South's talent hotbeds -- Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, etc. Today there are many more programs for those players to choose if they want a shot at winning championships and playing professionally, and many of them are closer to home than Tennessee. However, the rest of the intangibles have not changed: We have a huge fanbase with no pro franchise to compete for our attention (and $$), the facilities are among the best in the nation, academics are good enough to get by, we have football tradition and history that very few schools in this nation have, there are mega-donors with pockets deep enough to insure that the program has what it needs to succeed, and a board of trustees and university administration that is committed to winning. This is still one of the top 10 or 15 jobs in America.

It's true that Tennessee hasn't hired many "high profile" coaches over the years . . . but how much of that is due to the fact that Tennessee has traditionally preferred to hire from within the Vol family? Before Dooley and Kiffin, how many coaches has Tennessee had who weren't part of the family? Not many. Neyland certainly had a propensity for hiring from within the program and even though he didn't have to hire many coaches, so did Dickey.

I've also heard fans say that we're setting the bar too high, and firing Dooley after a 7-5 season is going to cause no coach to want to come here. To that I say, Kentucky, anyone? It might have been easy for UK to decide that they were no longer the program they were a decade and a half ago. Billy Clyde had more success at UK in basketball than Dooley has had at UT in football, and do we even need to talk about how UK forced out one of the most successful coaches of his era in Tubby Smith? Those high goals at UK certainly didn't drive away Calipari. It takes a big ego to be a coach. The opportunity to rebuild the program here is an attractive one. Attach the right kind of salary to it and it becomes hard to pass up.

[BanditVol]

   "We didn't get beat as bad at the away game I attended" is not a valid reason settle for mediocrity.  I feel bad that the current product on the field is good enough for you

No one is settling for mediocrity.  But a mediocre season can follow a BAD season, and lead to a GOOD or GREAT season.  So it may be necessary to TOLERATE a mediocre season to get to the GOOD season.  Does that help?   As for the product being good enough for me, it definitely is not.  It's just better than last year on offense.  A LOT better.  And if the offense improved so much year to year, why can't the D?

Obviously this year seems better because Bray is still playing.

It's way more than Bray.  Our running game is averaging 60 more ypg, our OL is playing lights out (did you notice that Clowney didn't get a single sack yesterday?) and even the kicking game is better.  The OFFENSE is better, and not just due to Bray.  It is, in fact, a team game.

This is the worst defense in UT history

 
If not THE worst, then certainly top 5.   

If Kiffin had us where we wanted to be by now, no one would care about how  it was handled.

Now see, I do disagree with this.  You do know that Kiffin just lost to Arizona and is likely to get punked by Oregon with legitimate MNC-level talent, AND his daddy coaching the D?  I realize that the Fulmer of 2002-2008 was a shell of his former self, but I question whether Kiffin at his BEST was even as good as Fulmer at his WORST.  I suppose you could compare 2009 to 2008 and say Kiffin was slightly better, but that's about it.  Speaking of mediocrity...was 7-6 in 2009 really worth getting rid of Fulmer?  I don't think it was!  So in fact, it WAS handled badly. In that, if you get rid of the second best coach in the history of the program (who is only slightly worse than the best) then you better make a better choice than Kiffin.   

For you to assume Hart will mishandle it just like Hamilton did is not wise, imo.

I am making no such assumption.  In fact, so far I am very happy with how Hart is handling it.  My perception, right or wrong, though I can support it, is that Hamilton caved too easily to public opinion and panicked and made some bad decisions.   Hart, so far as I can tell, is doing his own thing and not going to be swayed much by an excess of whining.