MJ > Lebron

[VinnieVOL]

That is understood now, right?

[Creek Walker]

I don't see how there's any debate, except for maybe the Gen Z fans who never watched MJ play. They aren't even in the same league. James is the best player in the game today, but that may be more of a testament to the lack of superstars in the game today than anything else. I don't think he's any better than Kobe Bryant, Larry Bird, Magic, Dr. J, etc., when they were in their prime.

[Black Diamond Vol]

Ya'll do realize that there is no way in hell that Miami is losing this game, right?  David Stern won't allow it.  I'd bet my life on it.

[VinnieVOL]

I can't get over how Lebron just disappears in these games with everything on the line.  He also shies away from conflict at the rim.  You see spectacular dunks on a fast break, but when he drives and meets resistance it'salways a kickout.  You see MJ dunks over opposing centers.  MJ was either making you pay at the rim or he was shooting FT's.

How many times in these playoffs have you thought "MJ would never allow this to happen"

[Black Diamond Vol]

I can't get over how Lebron just disappears in these games with everything on the line.  He also shies away from conflict at the rim.  You see spectacular dunks on a fast break, but when he drives and meets resistance it'salways a kickout.  You see MJ dunks over opposing centers.  MJ was either making you pay at the rim or he was shooting FT's.

How many times in these playoffs have you thought "MJ would never allow this to happen"

I think the most impressive thing about MJ was that he completely changed his style of play as his physical skills began to diminish, and was just as effective.  How many times did he make teams pay with that 15' fadeaway jumper late in his (Bulls) career?

It will be interesting to see if Lebron can do the same as he gets older.

[Creek Walker]

Ya'll do realize that there is no way in hell that Miami is losing this game, right?  David Stern won't allow it.  I'd bet my life on it.

Wade, James and Battier beg to differ. Lots of whining in Miami tonight. 

[Creek Walker]

How many times in these playoffs have you thought "MJ would never allow this to happen"

Exactly. MJ could've taken the 3 of us and any other NBA player and not gotten beat by 36 points...especially against a team that, let's face it, has inferior talent.

[VinnieVOL]

MJ also wouldn't lay there crying on the floor, leaving his team shorthanded on defense as Parker scores.    


These calls do not support a pro Heat conspiracy theory.  

[Black Diamond Vol]

Wade, James and Battier beg to differ. Lots of whining in Miami tonight. 

Just watch.  Start of the 4th quarter, 10 point game.  Lebron is about to start flopping like a minnow on hot asphalt- and he'll get every call.  Take it to the bank.

[VinnieVOL]

Twiter is awesome right now.

[Creek Walker]

Well that really sucked.

[Black Diamond Vol]

When it comes to the NBA, I make no apologies about the fact that I am, indeed, a full-blown, tinfoil hat wearing, black helicopter conspiracy theorist.  I don't think the game has been on the level for years, maybe decades.  And I don't think it's limited to just the officials, of which there's been plenty of anecdotal evidence over the years (Tim Donaghy, anyone?).  I think at least a few of the players are in on the gag, as well.  I mean, LeBron sure did find a lot clearer lane to drive to the basket in the fourth quarter and OT last night, didn't he?  Almost TOO clear.

[101stDad]

NBA?  What is this NBA some of you keep referring to? 

[Stogie Vol]

NBA?  What is this NBA some of you keep referring to? 

+1

[VinnieVOL]

NBA?  What is this NBA some of you keep referring to? 

A wise man once presented a great solution to your predicament:

http://volstothewall.com/board/index.php?topic=27405.msg133566#msg133566

 

[Black Diamond Vol]

When it comes to the NBA, I make no apologies about the fact that I am, indeed, a full-blown, tinfoil hat wearing, black helicopter conspiracy theorist.  I don't think the game has been on the level for years, maybe decades.  And I don't think it's limited to just the officials, of which there's been plenty of anecdotal evidence over the years (Tim Donaghy, anyone?).  I think at least a few of the players are in on the gag, as well.  I mean, LeBron sure did find a lot clearer lane to drive to the basket in the fourth quarter and OT last night, didn't he?  Almost TOO clear.

And oh, BTW, Manu Ginobli and Kawhi Leonard, who both missed critical FTs in the last minute that would've clinched the Title for SA, are career 83% and 80% from the stripe, respectively.  Just saying.

[Creek Walker]

And oh, BTW, Manu Ginobli and Kawhi Leonard, who both missed critical FTs in the last minute that would've clinched the Title for SA, are career 83% and 80% from the stripe, respectively.  Just saying.

For real, that might be the most half-baked theory I've ever heard. 

[Black Diamond Vol]

For real, that might be the most half-baked theory I've ever heard. 

Sure, in and of itself, it doesn't sound like much.  But when you see the same crap happen year after year in the postseason, well, I for one start to get suspicious.

[droner]

For real, that might be the most half-baked theory I've ever heard. 

I thought so too, especially when it looked like San Antonio would win the game. But then there's a timeout for a review of a Miami three pointer which kept SA from quickly inbounding the ball and moving upcourt. (There was no need for a review. The Miami shooter's feet were clearly behind the line.) And then a no call on a Miami foul at the end of regulation.

It's still a half-baked theory, but it's crap like this that starts these theories. And moves them from no-baked to half-baked. 

I have a friend who swears that the NFL is fixed. Of course, he bets on the games and believes that it's fixed when he loses. But there have been just enough weird things to kill his bets to convince him that it's fixed.

[Black Diamond Vol]

I thought so too, especially when it looked like San Antonio would win the game. But then there's a timeout for a review of a Miami three pointer which kept SA from quickly inbounding the ball and moving upcourt. (There was no need for a review. The Miami shooter's feet were clearly behind the line.) And then a no call on a Miami foul at the end of regulation.

It's still a half-baked theory, but it's crap like this that starts these theories. And moves them from no-baked to half-baked.  

I have a friend who swears that the NFL is fixed. Of course, he bets on the games and believes that it's fixed when he loses. But there have been just enough weird things to kill his bets to convince him that it's fixed.

The league, under Stern, has become unwatchable garbage.  And it's not just what's happening ON the court.  Stern has all but condoned open collusion between players.  It's how Miami's big 3 came together.  I just heard yesterday that Dwight Howard and Chris Paul are in talks about playing together next season.  Star players are becoming their teams' defacto GMs, to include hiring and firing coaches.  And the current salary structure all but insures that, going forward, just about every marquee, difference-making player will suit up in one of five cities:  New York, Boston, Miami, Chicago, and LA.  The only outliers right now are San Antonio and OKC- and once their stars retire and/or play out their contracts, they'll go back to mediocrity as well.  If you're lucky enough to land a superstar rookie in the draft, you'd better get some pieces around him and try to win right now- because he'll be gone as soon as he's a free agent.  I've never seen a professional sports league so obviously tilted towards the big markets.  

As a one time Hawks fan (I guess I still am, to the extent that I care about the NBA at all), I'll never forget the 93-94 season.  MJ was off playing baseball, and the Hawks had the best record in the league as of late February.  It was looking like this could be our year. Then, inexplicably, they trade Dominique Wilkins to the Clippers for Danny Manning right before the trade deadline.  Read that again- a team that had never advanced as far as the conference finals was in the midst of a possible title run, and they trade away the face of the franchise, the guy that the team is built around.  Who DOES that?  Can you imagine if Miami traded away Lebron this past February?  Or if the Spurs had traded Duncan?  They justified it at the time by saying that 'Nique was going to be a free agent, and they would lose him anyway.  Of course, SO WAS MANNING.  And they did, indeed, lose him as well.

At the time, I just shrugged it off as idiot management.  But now, in hindsight, I wonder.  The top four teams in the West that year were Seattle, Houston, San Antonio, and Utah.  Those are hardly TV-friendly markets.  To match up any of those teams with little ol' Atlanta would've been a ratings disaster.  And guess who was the second best team in the East that year?  The Knicks, of course.  Predictably, the 'Nique-less Hawks were swept by NY in the playoffs, and the NBA managed to avoid ratings armageddon in the Finals.  How convenient.  

Could Stern have had a say in that trade?  I didn't even consider such a scenario back then.  But in hindsight, it's certainly possible.

[Creek Walker]

I thought so too, especially when it looked like San Antonio would win the game. But then there's a timeout for a review of a Miami three pointer which kept SA from quickly inbounding the ball and moving upcourt. (There was no need for a review. The Miami shooter's feet were clearly behind the line.) And then a no call on a Miami foul at the end of regulation.

It's still a half-baked theory, but it's crap like this that starts these theories. And moves them from no-baked to half-baked. 

I have a friend who swears that the NFL is fixed. Of course, he bets on the games and believes that it's fixed when he loses. But there have been just enough weird things to kill his bets to convince him that it's fixed.

Hey, you'll get no argument from me on the officiating. I've long thought that the officials make calls on a whim based on what they believe David Stern would have them to do. There was no need to review that shot, and there were also TWO blatant no-calls late in the overtime period. I have a buddy who is a Heat fan (he might become a FORMER buddy if he keeps texting me at midnight after every Heat win over the Spurs) who argued that there's no way you could call those two fouls at the end of overtime. I said, "Okay, let's assume Lebron James were the one being fouled. Would it have been called a foul then?" And of course all but unreasonable people have to admit that it probably would've been call. That's what the NBA has become and I hate it because of that and some of the reasons BDV mentions . . . along with the fact that the NBA absolutely makes it impossible to play defense. And the TV announcers are unbearable as well. Several times last night I heard Jeff Van Gundy make the statement that a James foul shouldn't be a foul because "he's so strong." That's the same case they used to make when Shaq was in his prime. "Well, you can't call those fouls because he's just too strong." B.S. A foul is a foul.

Honestly, the only reason I still watch the NBA is because I've been watching Tim Duncan since I was in high school. When he and Manu and Parker hang up their hats, I'll probably be through with the NBA for good. Give me college basketball any day — where basketball is still basketball.

But, still, the notion that players and GMs are involved in some grand scheme by the NBA? Puhleaze. 

[BanditVol]

No way did the Spurs help throw it.

As for Stern favoring the big market teams....there is absolutely no question on this.  He said so in an interview on CNBC circa 2003.  He has turned the NBA into an individualistic sport where the superstars get favored treatment, ratings are everything, and the officials favor the stars and the big market teams.

Go back and look at the end of Game 6 and count the number of times the Spurs got raped while shooting and there wre no calls. A couple of times they fell down.  Last night, Bosh was openly grabbing Duncan's jersey for most of the game and when they finally called him on it he fell onto the floor and cried about it.   Of course, that was when the Heat was up 5 with a couple minutes ago so I guess it didn't matter or maybe they wanted a close finish.

Stern is about the most dishonest league official (IMO) that I have ever seen.

The only thing is, he is gone after this year (good riddance!).  Maybe the new guy will shake things up....

[UT Mom]

Is this really that  necessary a thing to be so amazing?


They are the first team to win back-to-back championships since the 2009-2010 Los Angeles Lakers.

Really?   one whole  year between the two back to backs.  

[Black Diamond Vol]

I hate to bring this thread back up to the top, but here's one more example.  Jay Z runs a sports marketing agency, and is certified as an NBA player agent.  He just landed his biggest client to date, Kevin Durant.  Mr. Z is also a minority owner of the Brooklyn Nets.  And apparently David Stern is A-OK with this.  Uh, What.  The.  fizzle?

[RON]

MJ > Any player who ever played in the NBA.