Discuss

[SmokeyJoe]

[volsboy]

I hope they get him.

[Creek Walker]

We could do a lot worse. But we can do better. I'm not at all convinced that Martin has suddenly become a good coach. So I wouldn't cry if he left. If he's offered a better job, I think he's gone. The only 2 better jobs as of now are Wake and BC. Marquette is the only lateral job out there right now but I'm not sure it's really all that lateral.

[SmokeyJoe]

I hope he stays, but it might please the legion of the miserable if he goes.

[VinnieVOL]

Much respect for the guy, I think he's a great man.  But, meh...  

[BanditVol]

I have discussed my views on Martin below and could elaborate a bit more, but I will stick to addressing whether it would be good for Martin to leave us or not.

Let me just sum up my thoughts on Martin (which again I could explain more) by saying that I was like everyone else in doubting his performance, but not to the same extent many did.  And the run at the end of this season has convinced me that he deserves two more years to show that this run was not a fluke. 

So given that this is my view...it would be bad for him to leave at this point in time.  All the players we have coming back are almost entirely his recruits and have grown into his system.  A new coach means ... IMO ... that the rebuilding year will be worse.

Further, my estimation of Martin has gone from "average to below average" to "above average to good".  I still don't think he is "great" and all these terms are subjective, but to the point of this discussion what I am saying is that I think he is likely better than many of the coaches who are currently available...so that if he does leave, the odds of getting a less capable coach are greater than getting an improvement...perhaps much greater.

In summary, I don't want him to leave and think it would be bad...potentially very bad to the program.  I would far rather give him a couple more years....if he can make the tourney next year or come close, and then perhaps have a run like this in two years, then he is about where I want him to be.   

[volsboy]

Is that all it takes to be a good coach is make the tourney. I want  coaches that give teams a legitimate shot at a title. I don't think he's that. Barely made the tourney, and got a fortunate seeding to  get to the Sweet 16. I do think they probably beat Duke if Mercer didn't first.

[BanditVol]

Is that all it takes to be a good coach is make the tourney. I want  coaches that give teams a legitimate shot at a title. I don't think he's that. Barely made the tourney, and got a fortunate seeding to  get to the Sweet 16. I do think they probably beat Duke if Mercer didn't first.

Another way of looking at it is, Pearl made the tourney every year, but in only three of those years did he make the Sweet Sixteen. 

Of the three years he made the tourney, only once did we advance to the Elite Eight.  Of the other two times, we suffered a decisive defeat and a close defeat.

So arguably, in his third year, Martin has matched what Pearl did in his second best year (close defeat in Regional Semifinal of NCAA tourney).  A good question is "did Pearl have more or less talent than Martin?".  I'm not going to address that question here, but does anyone claim this team of Martin is massively more talented than any Pearl had?  I don't think anyone would.

So you can say what you want about our performance this year....it arguably ties the second best year that Tennessee has ever had!   Are you saying that's not good enough?

Further, do you think there is a coach out there who can do better, and if so, who is it?

Pearl was and is an exceptional coach...Martin less so, though I believe he can continue to grow into the job.

But if you truly want him to leave, go find someone else likely to do this well in his first three years, and be sure to factor in the disruption caused by Martin leaving.   If you can identify a coach clearly better than Martin who is willing to come to Tennessee and build us into a national power, then have at it.

And what is very critical to this discussion is....Pearl ain't available any more.   


To some extent, I think people were much more willing to diss Martin as long as they thought Pearl might be waiting in the wings.  Well that is "Nah gonna happen". 

So is there another Pearl out there, and if so who?   If you can answer that with certainty, and be sure he will actually come to Knoxville, AND be willing to wait a year or two for his system and recruits to develop, then I can get on the "Martin needs to go" train with you.  But until you convince me of all of the above, I am going to say I hope Martin stays a couple more years. 

[Tnphil]

CM or Howland.....who would you hire?

[BanditVol]

A couple things I left out...Martin won three tourney games in a row, which actually matches what Pearl did in 2010, the year we made the Elite Eight (and the ONLY time Tennessee has accomplished that).   It's just that Martin had to start a game earlier.  So I would say that this makes this year the SECOND BEST year in Tennessee history, period, dot.  Because it was harder to get to this point.

The other thing is, I give Martin a pass for not making the tourney in 2011-12, as I discuss elsewhere.  As for last year, it can be argued that Martin "should" have made the tourney.  This is a criticism I share with others.  However, I am perhaps not AS CRITICAL as most because I factor in that we played the entire season of 2012-13 without Maymon, our best player in the previous season, and that we were literally considered the "first team out" or really close to it.  So that, without our best player returning, we almost made the tourney in Martin's second year....and while I DEFINITELY think we should have won a couple more games and made the tourney, it's not like we completely suxed or anything.  In fact, I think if Pearl or some other prominent coach had the same resume as Martin last year, the Committee may have let them in on "coach brand recognition" which Cuonzo certainly didn't have last year.

But who knows....I accept that Martin deserves criticism for not making the tourney last year...I just don't find it a reason to want him gone as many seem to.  It was "good enough" that I would be willing to wait for additional evidence...which we now have.

And I am going to be waiting for more....I am not saying that Martin is the coach of the future forever, just that he deserves a couple more years.   Of course, if he leaves, I won't be waiting and neither will you.   

[volsboy]

what if the committee hadn't chosen UT for the tourney? It was that close. We wouldn't be having this conversation. Barely the 64th team is not impressive. And like I said they benefited from a charmed bracket is the main reason for winning three games. UMass was way overceded, which they had no control over.. He is not a bad coach just not great.

[BanditVol]

what if the committee hadn't chosen UT for the tourney? It was that close. We wouldn't be having this conversation. Barely the 64th team is not impressive. And like I said they benefited from a charmed bracket is the main reason for winning three games. UMass was way overceded, which they had no control over.. He is not a bad coach just not great.

Right.  And that has more to do with THE COMMITTEE...than anything else.

First, BDV linked something below that apparently suggests that Dayton was actually the last team selected to not have to play a play in game, and they put us in because that particular game was in Dayton.

Second, only three SEC teams made the tourney.  While I completely accept that the SEC, top to bottom, was weak, I DON'T accept that we could not have had another team, or even TWO OTHER TEAMS in.  When I see the SEC having only three teams in while the Big 12 (with only 10 total members!) has SEVEN TEAMS, including a weak Texas team that finished down the stretch 4-6 and was dominated by the same Michigan team we almost beat.  Guess how many Big 12 teams are in the tourney still?  NONE!  Zip, zero, nada, zilch.  Whereas the SEC has two in the Elite Eight, and ALMOST HAD THREE!!!  And the loss was to the (in terms of regular season as a whole) best team in the vaunted Big 10, a team that only lost three conference games, and had a no. 2 seed.  Without the butt kicking by MSU in the Big 10 tourney, U Mich probably would have been seeded no. 1.

So...do you think we DESERVED to be seeded 11th and have to play a play-in game, while Texas...to take only one example...with only a slightly better record was seeded 7th?

I don't think you can read too much into our seeding, other than that the committee, and in fact seemingly everyone, has gone IMO too far in saying how weak the SEC was. It was weak, to be sure...just not THAT WEAK. 

If on the other hand, you are saying that the fact that we were reasonably close to not making the tournament, and combined with Martin's tendency to struggle in the first half or so of the season, means even with talented teams we might struggle to even make the tourney then that is also a concern of mine.

But let's see how that plays the next two years....what if Martin just needed three seasons to get "his system" rolling and it will continue to get better?  That is possible...though I expect us to have a hard time making the tourney next year, but ICBW....

[BanditVol]

Another thing...the ACC, with 6 teams, also has NO ONE LEFT.  Wow...were they really all that better than the SEC?  I dunno.  Top to bottom, sure...but our two top teams and ....ahem...even the number three SEC team could, IMO, at this point in the season compete with ANY ACC team.  Did we ... the third best team in the SEC, not CRUSH their top team in December?  I think we beat Virginia by more than 20 points, in fact.

Counterpoint...the Big 10 DOES impress me...they have three very good teams left, all in the Elite Eight, in MSU, Wisconsin and Michigan.  Michigan won the Big 10 in the regular season, and we were very close to defeating them. 

I think we can agree that Tennessee was seriously under-seeded and IMO Slive needs to address that.  What I suspect is that he cares more about football and is willing trade SEC tourney slots for future considerations of the football committee...which, BTW is coming and I personally don't like it for the very things I cite here and above...it's too subjective IMO.

And finally...I am actually GLAD that we were under-seeded...I am thinking a higher seeding would have actually been a tougher path.  What if were were eighth or ninth, and then had to play a similarly talented team for the "honor" of playing a no. 1 seed?  In a way, there might be an advantage to having to do a playin game to be the 11th seed...or at any rate our particular seeding this year worked to our advantage.

[SmokeyJoe]

what if the committee hadn't chosen UT for the tourney? It was that close. We wouldn't be having this conversation. Barely the 64th team is not impressive. And like I said they benefited from a charmed bracket is the main reason for winning three games. UMass was way overceded, which they had no control over.. He is not a bad coach just not great.

You ARE bamaboy. DNGAF how "lucky" we were.

[SmokeyJoe]

Michigan was built a bit differently. They were fast & quick. Outstanding execution. UT is going to be ok with or w/o Martin. As a program we need to keep chipping. Not a bad track record the last 10-15 years. Pearl was the home run guy. He fizzleed us all.  Keep on chuggin y'all.

[SmokeyJoe]

Or maybe we fizzleed Pearl. Point is moot. WE ARE NOT IN A BAD SPOT AT THIS MOMENT!

[SmokeyJoe]

How lucky is Florida to be playing Dayton bamaboy?

[Black Diamond Vol]

I wouldn't say this is our second best season ever.  Maybe if you judge it strictly on the postseason, but I don't think you can just disregard what the 07-08 team did in the regular season.  OOC wins over OSU, WVU, at Xavier, at Gonzaga, and at previously unbeaten and #1 Memphis.  Beat UK and Vandy at home.  Swept UF, including at their place on Senior Day.  First ever #1 ranking.  Went into Selection Sunday with the highest RPI number of all time (it was criminal that they didn't get a 1 seed).  And that team made the Sweet 16 as well.  I think that season and 09-10 have to be considered our two best.  

[VinnieVOL]

I wouldn't say this is our second best season ever.  Maybe if you judge it strictly on the postseason, but I don't think you can just disregard what the 07-08 team did in the regular season.  OOC wins over OSU, WVU, at Xavier, at Gonzaga, and at previously unbeaten and #1 Memphis.  Beat UK and Vandy at home.  Swept UF, including at their place on Senior Day.  First ever #1 ranking.  Went into Selection Sunday with the highest RPI number of all time (it was criminal that they didn't get a 1 seed).  And that team made the Sweet 16 as well.  I think that season and 09-10 have to be considered our two best.  

Agree with that.

[BanditVol]

I wouldn't say this is our second best season ever.  Maybe if you judge it strictly on the postseason, but I don't think you can just disregard what the 07-08 team did in the regular season.  OOC wins over OSU, WVU, at Xavier, at Gonzaga, and at previously unbeaten and #1 Memphis.  Beat UK and Vandy at home.  Swept UF, including at their place on Senior Day.  First ever #1 ranking.  Went into Selection Sunday with the highest RPI number of all time (it was criminal that they didn't get a 1 seed).  And that team made the Sweet 16 as well.  I think that season and 09-10 have to be considered our two best.  

That's fair enough.  I would agree that some of our high profile wins in 07-08 were pretty impressive.  And our regular season record this year was not that impressive compared to some other years.

So let me modify that to "second best POSTseason ever".     Or maybe third, but definitely one of our most successful postseasons.

[Volznut]

what happens will happen. We need someone who can recruit

[Inspector Vol]

Does not really matter if he stays or goes. UT basketball is what it is, until we make a homerun hire and the university works to keep him and help him be successful. Switching to Nike will not hurt and may help attract a coach and a few more players.