the dreaded lawn question.....

[Clockwork Orange]

It all depends on the soil.  By definition, most of TN clay is compact.  If it's loam then I agree.

Well, if your lawn is mostly clay and you don't try to improve it, then you're in a never ending cycle and I can see why it might seem like twice a year aeration is necessary. The only thing that's really going to help the tilth of clay soil long term is organic matter and the natural soil structure that only microbial activity can create.

In Knoxville, I don't think we actually have clay, although just about every homeowner I know claims that we do. This close to several rivers, we likely have silty loam, and maybe a little clay. It's just that decades of poor soil treatment by farmers and homeowners alike has left it with little organic matter and few nutrients. I'm not a soil scientist, so I'm just going by what I've read.

[droner]

I have Centipede and my neighbor two houses down has Bermuda. My Centipede has run through weeds, Fescue, Zoysia and concrete. But I'm seeing signs of an outbreak of Bermuda. I didn't think anything could defeat the Centipede.

[10EC]

In Knoxville, I don't think we actually have clay, although just about every homeowner I know claims that we do. This close to several rivers, we likely have silty loam, and maybe a little clay. It's just that decades of poor soil treatment by farmers and homeowners alike has left it with little organic matter and few nutrients. I'm not a soil scientist, so I'm just going by what I've read.

I'm thinking you don't live on a hill...  My lot was scraped off the top of one.  You could take a knife and carve out chunks of my former yard.

One thing I do like about the areation is that if you do it right before over-seeding (not a new yard), it guarantees a much higher rate of soil/seed contact.  I agree with you though that ammendents are the best way to go, but for a big yard, that gets pricey. 

[Clockwork Orange]

I have Centipede and my neighbor two houses down has Bermuda. My Centipede has run through weeds, Fescue, Zoysia and concrete. But I'm seeing signs of an outbreak of Bermuda. I didn't think anything could defeat the Centipede.

It is the cockroach of the plant world, and would simply bask in the warmth of a nuclear explosion. It would be the primary benefactor of the Dr. Strangelove "Doomsday Device," which would kill all other vegetation. If we were to live in a system of caverns to outlast the fallout, it would be just a matter of weeks before our underground greenhouses would be infested by bermuda. It would crawl its way through 300 feet of solid fizzleing rock to get there, if it had to.

If there is a hell; and if, as some say, it is a place of personal torment; and if, as I've been accused, I am doomed to end up there; my personal hell will be being isolated to a bermuda lawn. It'll always be 90 degrees, and I'll always be trying to keep it out of my flowerbeds: a sisyphean task from which I could never escape.

I don't much like bermuda.

[Clockwork Orange]

I'm thinking you don't live on a hill...  My lot was scraped off the top of one.  You could take a knife and carve out chunks of my former yard.

One thing I do like about the areation is that if you do it right before over-seeding (not a new yard), it guarantees a much higher rate of soil/seed contact.  I agree with you though that ammendents are the best way to go, but for a big yard, that gets pricey. 

Now I could definitely see how you could have more clay than most Tennesseans; it sounds like you are trying to grow a lawn on what used to be subsoil! What a difficult task.

Amendments are the only long-term solution, but I agree they are very pricey. I have the pleasure of a 1500 sq ft front lawn that I can baby without breaking the bank (the back is the dogs' realm, so I do very little besides mow). What I do is not practical if you have 15,000 sq ft of grass, unless you have a lot of time, a lot of money, or both.

[Volznut]

My experience indicates that even that lawn will be overtaken by bermuda eventually.

spray it down with bleach and rat poison, burn in some napalm

[Clockwork Orange]

spray it down with bleach and rat poison, burn in some napalm

Yeah, and then what do I do when that only makes it angry?

[10EC]

Yeah, and then what do I do when that only makes it angry?

I laughed... so true.... 

[Volznut]

Yeah, and then what do I do when that only makes it angry?

carpet bombing? nukes?

[BigOrange Maniac]

Regarding clay dirt:

I know most people don't like the idea of a ryegrass lawn, but I've discovered that it will grow very well on poor soils, such as clay. I agree with Clocky that most people in TN don't have nearly as much clay as they think they have. But on our hunting lease, we have a lot of clay in areas that were logged 15 years ago and had all the topsoil bulldozed to the side. A decade and a half later, nothing grows in those spots except some scraggly yellow pines and briars here and there. We plant them in ryegrass (because it's cheap and easy to grow and the deer like to eat it just about as well as any cool season grass). We apply lime in advance at a rate of 2 tons per acre, fertilize with triple 13 at the time of planting at a rate of 150 lbs. per acre and then fertilize the same amount a few weeks after germination. Last fall, I had a plot of ryegrass on nothing but pure clay that had seemed almost useless that looked prettier than my lawn has ever looked. I had to resist the urge to haul my Husqvarna lawn tractor up on the mountain and mow it, it looked so nice and green.  

This was taken Oct. 14 last fall on a small, 1/2-acre plot. Two months earlier, this was nothing but dirt and a few weeds, and had been for more than a decade:

[Clockwork Orange]

This was taken Oct. 14 last fall on a small, 1/2-acre plot. Two months earlier, this was nothing but dirt and a few weeds, and had been for more than a decade:

Beautiful! As some of that grass dies and rots (with seeds dropping to take its place), and as those leaves fall and rot . . . over time that soil is going to develop some organic matter content and structure and you are going to have turned it around. Bigger native trees will start germinating and being able to survive, and nature will finally take that artificial meadow back. By doing some seeding, even with a non-native grass, you have kick started that area into undoing the changes the loggers made. 

[BigOrange Maniac]

Beautiful! As some of that grass dies and rots (with seeds dropping to take its place), and as those leaves fall and rot . . . over time that soil is going to develop some organic matter content and structure and you are going to have turned it around. Bigger native trees will start germinating and being able to survive, and nature will finally take that artificial meadow back. By doing some seeding, even with a non-native grass, you have kick started that area into undoing the changes the loggers made. 

Yep, that is the plan. It will take a few years but the plants will add nutrients to the soil that will change its makeup. I hope we're able to hold onto the lease and see the results.

[FLVOL]

Sorry for the slow reply

I meant that bermuda has infested my yard and it looks like crap, not the other way around.  Thanks for all the good advice, and it looks like Im going to start on my yard late this summer. One last question; is there a major difference between fescue and kentucky blue grass? preference?

[Clockwork Orange]

Sorry for the slow reply

I meant that bermuda has infested my yard and it looks like crap, not the other way around.  Thanks for all the good advice, and it looks like Im going to start on my yard late this summer. One last question; is there a major difference between fescue and kentucky blue grass? preference?

I'd love to grow KBG but it would be a major challenge just about anywhere in TN. You might be able to get away with it up in the Tri Cities area, but TN is just too damn hot in the summer for KBG to thrive. It would take even more water and more fertilizer than tall fescue, and even then it may not make it. It'd be extremely high maintenance. If I were you I would stick with fescue.

With that said, I'm thinking of overseeding with some KBG this fall. I am willing to baby it a little in my small front yard, and if it's healthy it will spread and fill in gaps (fescue will not). It might give the bermuda some competition in that regard . . . or it may just die a crispy summer death next year.

[wtkvol]

expensive. I have a Landscaping business and 90% of the new lawns we do are Zozysia.