Jon Gruden

[VinnieVOL]

Well said Creek, Kentucky is a good example.  Also, Bama.  Their finances were not in good shape pre Saban.  But as with Kentucky, the said "you know what.  We're special... We're above this."  And they hired accordingly.  All I can do is shake my head at the fact that somehow Dooley became the head coach for Tennessee.  It's an embarrassment, to me.  THIS guy is what Hamilton thought of this program.  Well, you get what you pay for.

And for people to compare this to the past two coaching searches, you just cannot compare the two.  Totally different AD, totally different situation.  Hammy had an agenda with Fulmer the whole time.

I'm convinced Hart gets it.  I think he's convinced the money people that it's time to stop screwing around, pinching pemnies, and do this right.  I know Gruden is option 1a, 1b, and 1c.  And while some still have reservations even about him, I just can't imagine a scenario where he's not successful here.

[BanditVol]

And once again, money is not of any issue here.  It will cost UT more money if Dooley were to stay.  It doesn't really matter anyway, because Dooley is a goner.

Once again, the editor got me.  But to finish, yeah..."money is not an issue".  Whose money?  Easy to say it's not an issue when it's someone else's money I suppose.  How much are you personally willing to donate to get rid of Dooley?  If a wealthy donor is worth $100 million, should he or she donate 9% of their net worth to pay the $9.3 million in buyouts?  Would you donate 9% of yours?  Dooley may well be a goner, but until it happens, he's not, and who knows when Hart will pull the trigger.

I think I have a good hunch how Hart is playing this, but that's all it is.  I am looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

Hart...cannot POSSIBLY...do worse than Hamilton.  (or I hope not)

[TheRealOrange]

Also, I'm not sure why so many UT fans are convinced that this football program isn't a destination job.

History is meaningful.  I think UT can be a destination job, but not for every successful coach out there.  What is it about Tennessee that would draw a successful coach from another large university?  I still say there would have to be something about Knoxville and UT that would be attractive to a prospective coach on both a professional and personal level.

I've had more than a few UT fans give me a laundry list of reasons why Tennessee should keep Dooley, and it always comes back to their belief that UT cannot attract a better coach.

I think there are legitimate reasons to keep Dooley, but none of them have anything to do with UT not being able to attract a better coah.  Dooley had a medicore record at La. Tech, and has been poor at Tennessee.  He certainly has not set the bar very high.

I LOL'd at a beat writer from the Maryville newspaper who belittled UT fans for daring to believe that Tennessee can lure a top-notch coach to Knoxville.

Well, how long has it been since they did that?  Majors in 1977?

This mindset has only developed over the last four years, and directly from the need of our fans to justify Hamilton's weak hires.

Well, of course it has.  The last hire was in 1992 and the one before that was 1977.  That's a Vols football lieftime to many fans, especially those likely to post on the internet.  I don't think it's to justify Hamilton's hires.  I think it's a reflection of what they have seen in the coaching searches in late 2008 and early 2010.  It sure seems like a lot of unofficial declinations of a lot of unofficial offers.  Very frustrating.

Suddenly some fans act as though UT's success began and ended with the '90s.  Fulmer's success was great -- maybe unprecedented, all things considered.  But Tennessee has been an elite program -- and by elite I mean one of the top five programs in America -- since Neyland arrived on the scene in the '20s.  Has anything happened to change that?

Yep.  We live in a "what have you done for me lately" college football world, and that, IMO, includes programs.

This is still one of the top 10 or 15 jobs in America.

I would like to agree, but I just don't see it and would not have agreed even before Fulmer was fired.  That's why, even though I thought it was time for him to go, I warned at the time for fans to be careful what they asked for because I did not think that many successful coaches would be apt to leave their existing jobs for UT.  What would be the upside for them?  If it's just more money,....again, be careful what you ask for.

It's true that Tennessee hasn't hired many "high profile" coaches over the years . . . but how much of that is due to the fact that Tennessee has traditionally preferred to hire from within the Vol family?  Before Dooley and Kiffin, how many coaches has Tennessee had who weren't part of the family?  Not many.  Neyland certainly had a propensity for hiring from within the program and even though he didn't have to hire many coaches, so did Dickey.

Well, Dickey hired only Fulmer, so....    Bob Woodruff hired Dickey (not family), Battle (sort of family; assistant coach for three years, but never played at UT), and Majors (family).  The Majors and Fulmer eras span a huge chunk of time (over 30 years), which clearly has an effect on people's perception.  Anything before Woodruff is ancient coaching history, which makes me VERY old.  

[VinnieVOL]

Once again, the editor got me.  But to finish, yeah..."money is not an issue".  Whose money?  Easy to say it's not an issue when it's someone else's money I suppose.  How much are you personally willing to donate to get rid of Dooley?  If a wealthy donor is worth $100 million, should he or she donate 9% of their net worth to pay the $9.3 million in buyouts?  Would you donate 9% of yours?  Dooley may well be a goner, but until it happens, he's not, and who knows when Hart will pull the trigger.

I think I have a good hunch how Hart is playing this, but that's all it is.  I am looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

Hart...cannot POSSIBLY...do worse than Hamilton.  (or I hope not)

Lol, what I can or can't contribute has nothing to do with it.  Obviously (at least, I thought it was obvious) what I meant was people whose money drives these kinds of decisions are willing to spend whatever it costs.  If you choose not to believe that, fine.  But reputable individuals who make a living covering the Vols say it's a fact.

So you think this year is only mediocre, not bad?  And by that reasoning Dooley deserves more time?  Vandy is the only other conference team that has started 0-5 in conference play for three consecutive seasons.  If you don't get it by now, you're never going to.
This is Tennessee.  That shizzle just ain't good enough.  Period.  We deserve better.  If Dooley had beat just ONE team he shouldn't have, this might be a different conversation.  But he hasn't.  Plus, he lost to Kentucky.  So, BYE DOOLS.

[BanditVol]

Well said Creek, Kentucky is a good example.  Also, Bama.  Their finances were not in good shape pre Saban.  But as with Kentucky, the said "you know what.  We're special... We're above this."  And they hired accordingly.  All I can do is shake my head at the fact that somehow Dooley became the head coach for Tennessee.  It's an embarrassment, to me.  THIS guy is what Hamilton thought of this program.  Well, you get what you pay for.

I'm convinced Hart gets it.  I think he's convinced the money people that it's time to stop screwing around, pinching pemnies, and do this right.  I know Gruden is option 1a, 1b, and 1c.  And while some still have reservations even about him, I just can't imagine a scenario where he's not successful here.

Just this morning, I was told that bammer had to only worry about Shula's buyout, and that it wasn't much.  Franchione left on his own while Price and Dubose were fired for cause, so no buyout.  And Shula's buyout wasn't that much.

Agree about Dooley.  Was shocked that we hired him.

Not pinching pennies is great, but the timing of when to do so can vary.  If Hart waits a certain further period of time, what of it?  Provided that the end result is the same.....

[VinnieVOL]

Just this morning, I was told that bammer had to only worry about Shula's buyout, and that it wasn't much.  Franchione left on his own while Price and Dubose were fired for cause, so no buyout.  And Shula's buyout wasn't that much.

Agree about Dooley.  Was shocked that we hired him.

Not pinching pennies is great, but the timing of when to do so can vary.  If Hart waits a certain further period of time, what of it?  Provided that the end result is the same.....

You and I certainly agree that Hart can't possibly screw up as bad as Hamilton did.

[TheRealOrange]

All I can do is shake my head at the fact that somehow Dooley became the head coach for Tennessee.  It's an embarrassment, to me.  THIS guy is what Hamilton thought of this program.  Well, you get what you pay for.

Well, I went back through the posts from January 2010 earlier today.  Kiffin left less than a month before the signing date and after most available coaches had already been hired.  It was hardly a "normal" head coaching search situation.  Dooley was not even on my radar screen, but most of the big names had already said they were staying put (or we got the dreaded, "I have not been in official contact" about the job -- meaning we talked but I turned them down for whatever reason).  Now, if the whatever reason was not enough money, then why?  Hamilton?  Boosters not stepping up?  Who the heck knows.  I also do not think you always get what you pay for in head coaching.  There are lots of unemployed head coaches out there who were paid huge sums for zero results, and a ton of assistants (usually coordinators) who are now extremely successful head coaches.  Dooley had no pedigree coming in.  At the very least, the next guy better.  Assuming, of course, that Dooley is gone.

[BanditVol]

Also, I'm not sure why so many UT fans are convinced that this football program isn't a destination job.  This is still one of the top 10 or 15 jobs in America.
 

Agree, and I don't agree at all that we "can't attract a good coach to UT".

However, the rest of the intangibles have not changed: We have a huge fanbase with no pro franchise to compete for our attention (and $$),  

Titans?

Our views are actually less divergent than you think.  I'm simply willing to wait till the end of the season, and possibly even till next season.  Don't worry, it stops there.  There was a concerted rush to throw Dooley under the bus after we lost to UK last year, and it carried over till this year.  That's what all the "9-3 or else", "all in on Florida", etc, was really all about.  The real decisions were made last year.  I know, because I saw them discussed in great detail on this board.     The gist of the conversations last year was "Dooley had until the end of 2012 and maybe into 2013, but this Kentucky loss blew that" and that led to "I am setting my expectations unrealistically high for 2012 knowing he will fail so I can bail on him".

I'm just sticking with the original plan, is all.  Good to the end of 2012, and possibly into 2013 if Hart so decides.  

[Creek Walker]

Well, Dickey hired only Fulmer, so....    Bob Woodruff hired Dickey (not family), Battle (sort of family; assistant coach for three years, but never played at UT), and Majors (family).  The Majors and Fulmer eras span a huge chunk of time (over 30 years), which clearly has an effect on people's perception.  Anything before Woodruff is ancient coaching history, which makes me VERY old.  

My timeline was screwed up. For whatever reason I was thinking Dickey was already AD when Majors was hired. I was only off by 8 years or so . . . 

[VinnieVOL]

Well, I went back through the posts from January 2010 earlier today.  Kiffin left less than a month before the signing date and after most available coaches had already been hired.  It was hardly a "normal" head coaching search situation.  Dooley was not even on my radar screen, but most of the big names had already said they were staying put (or we got the dreaded, "I have not been in official contact" about the job -- meaning we talked but I turned them down for whatever reason).  Now, if the whatever reason was not enough money, then why?  Hamilton?  Boosters not stepping up?  Who the heck knows.  I also do not think you always get what you pay for in head coaching.  There are lots of unemployed head coaches out there who were paid huge sums for zero results, and a ton of assistants (usually coordinators) who are now extremely successful head coaches.  Dooley had no pedigree coming in.  At the very least, the next guy better.  Assuming, of course, that Dooley is gone.

That's true.  It was a mess.  I wouldn't even want to go back and look at the posts.  

[TheRealOrange]

My timeline was screwed up. For whatever reason I was thinking Dickey was already AD when Majors was hired. I was only off by 8 years or so . . . 

Well, I was alive for pre-Woodruff as AD, but since I lived in Philly then, I'm not counting it because it would REALLY make me feel old.   

[TheRealOrange]

That's true.  It was a mess.  I wouldn't even want to go back and look at the posts.    

The worst part, to me, was the fact that so many people wanted Dooley to succeed, not just for the program but because he seemed like a great guy.  It's a shame really that he couldn't put a great staff together quickly and win just a few of those close games.  Perhaps he could have grown into the job.  It doesn't seem likely given his results so far, but it would have been nice (or at least a lot nicer than what has happened). 

[BanditVol]

If we had the 60th best defense in the country we'd be in good (relatively speaking) shape. All Dooley had to do is get an average DC. The only question is if Hart made him hire Sunseri. If that's the case we have larger problems.

Now this, I cannot argue with.  If Dooley is retained (which may not be likely anyway), the D has to show massive improvement next year.  I think it could happen for a few reasons.

One, we can improve by simple inertia if nothing else.       We are THAT bad.
Two, Sunseri might need a year to implement things and get his players in place.
Three, Dooley did greatly improve the offensive product from last year to this, including the O Line and run game, so why would our D not improve next year?

[Creek Walker]

The 2010 coaching search was wild . . . first Muschamp was on the verge of coming, then Troy Calhoun was a done deal until he wasn't, then David Cutcliffe was a done deal until he wasn't. Throw in a few wild rumors about Lovie Smith being on the Haslams' private jet to Knoxville . . .

One thing I wonder, though, is just how many coaches DID turn us down? Hamilton was a master of deception. Honestly, when I read about the lengths Mitt Romney's campaign went to in order to secretively get Paul Ryan out of Wisconsin, I laughed and said that Hamilton must have spearheaded the effort. Hamilton was great at creating smoke screens and throwing the press off on the wrong angle. And it wasn't just the UT beat guys who were fooled by him. I spoke to a reporter in Colorado Springs at the time who told me that Calhoun was headed to a team meeting to inform his players that he was headed to Knoxville. So while I will always believe that Muschamp was truly Hamilton's No. 1 target, can any of us say with any certainty that Tennessee made anything more than a soft pitch at Muschamp? Or that they pursued Calhoun at all? Or any of the others?

[PirateVOL]

Well, I went back through the posts from January 2010 earlier today. 

I might say something but all I did was review MY posts from that timeframe ...

[TheRealOrange]

The 2010 coaching search was wild . . . first Muschamp was on the verge of coming, then Troy Calhoun was a done deal until he wasn't, then David Cutcliffe was a done deal until he wasn't. Throw in a few wild rumors about Lovie Smith being on the Haslams' private jet to Knoxville . . .

One thing I wonder, though, is just how many coaches DID turn us down? Hamilton was a master of deception. Honestly, when I read about the lengths Mitt Romney's campaign went to in order to secretively get Paul Ryan out of Wisconsin, I laughed and said that Hamilton must have spearheaded the effort. Hamilton was great at creating smoke screens and throwing the press off on the wrong angle. And it wasn't just the UT beat guys who were fooled by him. I spoke to a reporter in Colorado Springs at the time who told me that Calhoun was headed to a team meeting to inform his players that he was headed to Knoxville. So while I will always believe that Muschamp was truly Hamilton's No. 1 target, can any of us say with any certainty that Tennessee made anything more than a soft pitch at Muschamp? Or that they pursued Calhoun at all? Or any of the others?

The opposite questions could be asked too.  Can any of us say with any certainty that Tennessee did not make feverish pitches at the likes of Gruden and Cowher and Smith, etc.?  Or that they didn't pursue even more big names but got shot down early and often?  The timing was horrible for going after existing college coaches, so existing and former NFL coaches would have made more likely targets (or so it seems to me).  In this case it's not 20/20 hindsight; it's total lack of hindsight.   

[BanditVol]

So you think this year is only mediocre, not bad?  And by that reasoning Dooley deserves more time?  Vandy is the only other conference team that has started 0-5 in conference play for three consecutive seasons.  

Well you ask me about this season and then bring up our record over three seasons?  LOL.  Ignoring the part about "0-5 for the third consecutive season", I will say that yes, this season is mediocre.  So far.  It can still be as bad as last year, though I TRULY hope it is not.     If we close 5-0, then it's still our best season since 2007  , and right now this program needs that whether Dooley is the coach next year or not.  Which brings me to your final point above...I am not really arguing that Dooley should be the coach or not next year.  It should be based on the entire body of work for the season.

This is Tennessee.  That shizzle just ain't good enough.  Period.  We deserve better.  If Dooley had beat just ONE team he shouldn't have, this might be a different conversation.  But he hasn't.  Plus, he lost to Kentucky.  So, BYE DOOLS.

I agree it's not good enough.  Just a bit more patient in getting it back to where it should be.  But not infinitely so, trust me.   I can wait until the end of the season to see how this all plays out, and depending on how it does, maybe even one more season, but that's it.

To me, a year's difference in a coaching change is not that big a deal, one way or the other.  If Dooley gets 3 or 4 years, meh, it's about the same to me.